The false rape problem

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Is rape categorically worse than theft? I tend to think yes.

If that's the case, then false accusations of rape are categorically different to false accusations of theft/etc. To falsely accuse someone of rape is to intend to subject that person to the penalty of rape. False accusations of rape are akin to rape, and that's really being generous, as victims may actually get raped in prison, by multiple people at once.

Don't pretend to not know why false accusation of rape is a heinous crime.

I'm not pretending to act like it's not bad. It is.

But let's not make it look like it's as bad as rape itself. 

Not being very objective there 

Do all prisoners get raped? Well no. 

 

[lmfao]

@krockerman A big part of it seems to be the evidence matter. Rape is a difficult crime to prove [legal systems have their own definitions for proof, and I'm guessing that different crimes will have different procedures in place for how they are prosecuted and proved. Different countries will have different cultures as well as different evidentiary requirements.] compared to other crimes, but I myself don't know those forensic and crime analysis details which goes into "proving" such a thing to court standards. 

If rape is difficult to prove, then it will be difficult to disprove or reverse a judgement as well. 

On 04/04/2021 at 7:28 PM, krockerman said:

Is it right to put 1 real rapist in jail and an innocent man? or let them both go where the rapist would harm two other women? What is the right thing? I hope we can have a constructive conversation about this issue

The statistics won't be like that, but yeah the abstract principle remains. The principle also pops into some people's mind when discussing that the death penalty is bad, that you might be killing someone innocent.  Back to talking about rape, the proportion of those wrongly found guilty seems to be small. But it's a still a problem. 

On 04/04/2021 at 7:28 PM, krockerman said:

Someone I know got falsely accused and even considered suicide a couple of years ago. They were sober, She never said no and they hung out after

Yeah, that's a really sad story to hear dude. I hope he didn't to to jail.

On 04/04/2021 at 7:28 PM, krockerman said:

But if we are gonna treat every man who rapes as a rapist then the number of false accusations will skyrocket and so many men's lives will be ruined. Then rape will start to be something that people are gonna take less seriously 

Uhhh so you're worried about how things will go forward or the culture changes. I would just relax judgement and narrowing your mind. Right now it's hypothetical, and this is just one train of thought. 

Tangentially related is cancel culture

Edited April 7, 2021 by lmfao

[The0Self]

Just now, Preety_India said:

But let's not make it look like it's as bad as rape itself.

It can be less bad; it can be worse. Let's not think in absolutes.

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Is rape categorically worse than theft? I tend to think yes.

If that's the case, then false accusations of rape are categorically different to false accusations of theft/etc. To falsely accuse someone of rape is to intend to subject that person to the penalty of rape. False accusations of rape are akin to rape, and that's really being generous, as victims may actually get raped in prison, by multiple people at once.

Don't pretend to not know why false accusation of rape is a heinous crime.

Yes, there are categorical differences. You bring up a good example of that categorical difference, yet it is still biased and contracted within one perspective.

There are also other categorical distinctions. For example, increasing the threshold to persecute and convict for rape would further leverage gender dynamics - it would empower men and disempower women. This would not be true for other false accusations, like theft. If we raise the threshold to persecute and convict for theft, it would not asymmetrically empower men and disempower women (since both genders have roughly equal potential to commit theft and be victims of theft). 

As well, selectively examining if rape and false rape accusations have similar harm has value, yet being contracted within the individual level, dismisses the population level. At the societal level, rape and domestic violence cause more societal harm than false accusations of rape and domestic violence. Both individual and societal levels need to be considered when deciding where to invest limited resources and constructing public policy. 

I'm not saying your categorical difference is wrong. Rather, it is selectively focused within one narrative. 

[Danioover9000]

@Gesundheit

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

It depends on the culture.

For example, in my country, if a girl was raped by someone, they usually marry her to her rapist to avoid public shame, because  having sex before marriage is a great shame here, especially for women. So, even if she was raped, her folks try to hide and suppress that story, and then they communicate with the rapist family in order to arrange a marriage, and then after a few days of marriage, they get their daughter divorced so that she's known to be not virgin anymore.

   Ok, the culture shapes societal views of men and women. So, what if the guy got accused of rape, gets jailed for 20 years, and is found out to be innocent? How does that society help this man transition back into life in one of it's communities? He was falsely accused, found innocent, but spent 20 years in jail.

[Parththakkar12]

False allegation against men is a hate-crime against men. It is the far end of the 'man bad, woman good' narrative. That's what I'm talking about! @Forestluv, if you want a broader context and everyone else looking for the root-cause of the issue, this is it.

Man-hate has real victims! Be careful hating men.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, The0Self said:

It can be less bad; it can be worse. Let's not think in absolutes.

.. 

 

 

Bogus. 

 

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

False allegation against men is a hate-crime against men. It is the far end of the 'man bad, woman good' narrative. That's what I'm talking about! @Forestluv,

If that is the only lens a mind is capable of perceiving through, the mind will have a distorted view. 

I'm not saying the view is wrong. I'm saying if that is the only piece of the map you are capable of seeing, you won't be able to construct a map with good understanding.

If a mind can only see pit bull attacks, it will have a distorted view of dogs and how society creates laws and rules about dogs. 

[Epikur]

btw 

https://livingwell.org.au/information/unhelpful-myths-about-the-sexual-assault-and-rape-of-men/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males

[Gesundheit]

18 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Gesundheit

   Ok, the culture shapes societal views of men and women. So, what if the guy got accused of rape, gets jailed for 20 years, and is found out to be innocent? How does that society help this man transition back into life in one of it's communities? He was falsely accused, found innocent, but spent 20 years in jail.

I don't think there's any legal system that sentences 20 years for rape. So you might be imagining things a lot worse than they are.

Usually when a woman falsely accuses a man, she's after his money, so she would be careful not to throw him in jail. If a woman seriously wanted to throw a man in jail, that means he's actually hurt her so bad that she wanted to get back at him through illegal means, because she couldn't get justice through the law because she's socially disadvantaged and the man was a jerk to her while thinking he would get away with it, so he probably deserves it. Otherwise, she would have to be completely nuts to falsely accuse him. There are basically no other options out of those three.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Gesundheit

[Parththakkar12]

15 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If that is the only lens a mind is capable of perceiving through, the mind will have a distorted view. 

I'm not saying the view is wrong. I'm saying if that is the only piece of the map you are capable of seeing, you won't be able to construct a map with good understanding.

If a mind can only see pit bull attacks, it will have a distorted view of dogs and how society creates laws and rules about dogs. 

Is it a hate-crime or is it not a hate-crime, because of the woman's anti-male biases and because her biased mind interpreted something that wasn't rape/sexual harassment as such? Is it a hate crime or not? Yes or no?

Why aren't we calling out the anti-male biases of the false accuser here? Why does it have to be the man only who works on himself? Why does only the man have to 'fix himself' to protect himself against a hate-crime like that? Is it his fault that he's the victim of a hate-crime? This is victim-blaming!!

Edited April 7, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

48 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

So, what if the guy got accused of rape, gets jailed for 20 years, and is found out to be innocent? How does that society help this man transition back into life in one of it's communities? He was falsely accused, found innocent, but spent 20 years in jail.

In developed countries, it would be extremely rare to receive a 20 year sentence for rape. It would need to be a severe case of rape with evidence. It's rare that an innocent person would be falsely convicted of rape and spend 20 years in jail.

Within any justice system, a small percentage of innocent people will be falsely imprisoned. It's not just rape. It happens with a variety of crimes. It's valid to ask how we can improve the justice system. And there are lots of problems with justice systems. Yet this needs to be balanced within the context of various harms. Each society has limited resources and needs to decide where to invest resources to best reduce harm. 

[Gesundheit]

19 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

False allegation against men is a hate-crime against men. It is the far end of the 'man bad, woman good' narrative. That's what I'm talking about! @Forestluv, if you want a broader context and everyone else looking for the root-cause of the issue, this is it.

Man-hate has real victims! Be careful hating men.

No, this is factually false. Nobody is that ideological about gender.

Most false accusations are motivated by desire for money or out of hurt.

[Parththakkar12]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

No, this is factually false. Nobody is that ideological about gender.

Most false accusations are motivated by desire for money or out of hurt.

Feminists are, in fact, that ideological about gender. The radical ones are responsible for this situation.

They talk as if they're fucking morally superior to men and that it's always 'man bad, woman good'. Of course! This false rape situation is evidence of the bubbling man-hate in feminists. At least the radical ones.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Feminists are, in fact, that ideological about gender. The radical ones are responsible for this situation.

Good. Don't get close to those and you'll be fine. They're masculine and unattractive, anyway.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Gesundheit

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Is it a hate-crime or is it not a hate-crime, because of the woman's anti-male biases and because her biased mind interpreted something that wasn't rape/sexual harassment as such? Is it a hate crime or not? Yes or no?

You are creating a construct in which a woman is fueled by hate to attack a man.

If all of a sudden, a random woman that hates men accused me of rape to make a man suffer - of course it is a crime fueled by hate. Yet it's not that simple. The point I'm trying to make is that you seem to have a narrow lens and are extrapolating that into generalities and hyperbole. 

Yes, false accusations against men are an injustice and have a terrible impact on men. Yet an honest, fair conversation would include the bigger picture of social harm regarding rape and domestic violence. This is a much broader and deeper social illness than false accusations.

I recently watched a documentary on the domestic violence of non-deadly strangulation. It is the most common form of domestic violence, yet rarely reported because the woman is often in a terribly weak position and non-deadly strangulation usually doesn't have obvious physical injury. And it often has relatively mild prison sentences. Yet it is violent behavior, causes extreme harm and is the #1 predictor of future abuse and murder. Are there some false accusations of non-deadly strangulation? Of course. About 2% of cases are false accusations. And those false accusations are awful. Yet if we hyper-focus on these false accusations, it can be counter-productive in solving the larger issue of domestic violence. 

There is a difference between consider false accusations in the larger context of reducing violence vs focusing on false accusations in a way that distorts overall violence and becomes counter-productive to reducing violence. Right now, we could eliminate false accusations of non-deadly strangulation right now - we could decriminalize it. Presto!! No more false convictions!! Yet overall, this would increase the occurrence of non-deadly strangulation. 

Again, the small percentage of innocent men sitting in prison right now is an awful injustice, worthy of attention. I've watched many interrogation interviews and prison documentaries. I've volunteered within prisons systems and I've imagined what it would be like to be falsely imprisoned. I'm not making light of that. Yet in addressing that issue, we also need to be mindful of the underlying crime. It's not right to reduce harm to 10 people in a way that will increase harm to 100 people. 

[Tetcher]

30 minutes ago, The0Self said:

It can be less bad; it can be worse. Let's not think in absolutes.

That's pretty clear. In some cases the rape victim will experience a mild discomfort and sense that boundaries were overtaken but it won't be life shattering. And in some cases a falsely accused victim will have her life destroyed, be it socially or jailed for years to decades. See for instance Julian Assange, the guy made us such a big favor showing the whole world war crimes and for that he got sent to supermax which is designed to destroy human psychee.

[Parththakkar12]

The fact that the system supports this shows the systemic internalized misandry that we have going on here. Fuck yeah! This is what we need to fix in the system!! #SexismAgainstMen

Edited April 7, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

That's pretty clear. In some cases the rape victim will experience a mild discomfort and sense that boundaries were overtaken but it won't be life shattering. 

If by "some cases" you mean 2% of mild rape cases, yea. . . 

Yet don't portray rape as generally being "mild discomfort and a sense that boundaries were overtaken". That describes spitting on a person, not physically forcing your penis into their vagina / anus against their will. 

I spent years volunteering in a psychiatric ward. Many of those cases involved rape. And rape is usually not an isolated event. There is generally more going on. And the impact of rape and domestic violence goes much deeper than "mild discomfort" and "overtaken boundaries". You have no clue what the actual impact is. 

And I also have personal experience with being falsely accused. That sucks too. 

[Gesundheit]

12 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

The fact that the system supports this shows the systemic internalized misandry that we have going on here. Fuck yeah! This is what we need to fix in the system!! #SexismAgainstMen

Lol. And I thought nobody was ideological about gender.