Corona Cult

[vladorion]

2 hours ago, Frylock said:

Did you even click on the link? It also calls out Belarus as having a high excess mortality rate: "Among former republics of the Soviet Union, only Belarus suffered substantial excess mortality in the first wave, after introducing almost no constraints on daily life. The second wave affected almost every country in the region. Russia now has one of the world’s largest excess-mortality gaps. It recorded about 370,000 more deaths than expected between April and December, compared with an official covid-19 toll of only 56,000."

You're proven wrong again and again. I could understand if this was March 2020 and you're saying this stuff, but we're well over a year into this and you're spouting stupid nonsense. Learn about the freaking virus already and how it spreads, FFS. Educate yourself, there's no excuse to be this ignorant.

Sorry if I'm coming across as rude. I just have little patience for people who speak against the science at this point in the pandemic.

Yes I did.

Yes, there's higher mortality rate. Not really different than that of France or United States, so it wasn't ridiculously high compared to other countries.

If you think the difference is worth shutting down the economy of a whole country (and that's not accounting for the fact that such countries are much closer towards herd immunity), then you're an idiot. This is far from a deadly disease that is threatening to obliterate half of the human population.

And if you're going to use the "you're selfish and don't care about other people's lives" card, well, why didn't you advocate for lockdowns before when flu killed 250,000-500,000 people every year? And would that be a good idea in your opinion? Did you even think about those people? 

What about 18 million people that die each year from heart disease? Do you care about them? Do you think we should ban all McDonalds, Burger King and countless other 'restaurants', as well as many other foods, cigarettes, alcohol etc. and maybe force people to work out and fine them if they don't? If you don't, then you must be against science.

You can get into some ridiculous territory following your logic.

[Jodistrict]

The world governments have been sold on this strategy of vaccines and brutal lockdowns by the medical establishment whose outlook is a scientific reductionist paradigm.  

Gorgion Agamben reflects on the life being created by a myopic science :   

 "Agamben reflects on the meaning of the new order and warns that: ‘Fear is a bad adviser, and I don’t believe that transforming the country into a plague-ridden land, where we all look at each other as potential sources of contagion, is really the solution.’ He is alive to the way that a kind of social alienation has become deeply embedded in the management of the epidemic, explaining that ‘because our neighbour has become a potential source of contagion, we have agreed to suspend our friendships and relationships’. He also warns that ‘social distancing… will be society’s new organising principle’. ‘I do not believe that a community based on “social distancing” is humanly and politically liveable’, he states."

Giorgio Agamben describes the consequences of science’s focus on biology in negation of the spirit: 

"Fundamental to his argument – a claim that he has made elsewhere, notably in Homo Sacer – is the observation that modern social norms increasingly diminish human existence to the bare condition of biological life. That means we lose sight of the importance of freedom and self-expression. ‘Human rights’, in this account, lead us to abandon civil liberties in favour of mere biological existence, as if we were like cattle. ‘People have been confined to their houses and, deprived of all social relationships, reduced to a condition of biological survival’, Agamben writes. The problem comes when ‘people no longer believe in anything, except in a bare biological existence which should be preserved at any cost’, he says, ‘but only tyranny, only the monstrous Leviathan with his drawn sword can be built upon the fear of losing one’s life’. We have reached a point where more engaging social projects have lost meaning so that ‘our society believes in nothing but bare life. But bare life is not something that unites people: it blinds and separates them.’ "

Giorgio Agamben describes the consequence of a materialistic world view – authoritarianism:

"Agamben also draws attention to how a state of ‘exception’ or ‘emergency powers’ can be invoked to suspend ordinary democratic rights and legal norms. He has written previously on how anti-terror legislation created an ‘exception’ that allowed for surveillance and a loss of rights. The coronavirus pandemic is similarly an exceptional circumstance that is invoked to suspend ordinary legality and liberties. But the point about these ‘exceptions’ is that, paradoxically, they quickly become the norm – or the ‘New Normal’, as is often said today. Agamben thinks ‘it is very likely that, after the health emergency is over, governments will attempt to continue the experiments… we will no longer gather to have conversations about politics or culture’."

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/17/where-are-the-postmodernists-when-you-need-them/
 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Jodistrict

[Frylock]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

Yes I did.

Yes, there's higher mortality rate. Not really different than that of France or United States, so it wasn't ridiculously high compared to other countries.

If you think the difference is worth shutting down the economy of a whole country (and that's not accounting for the fact that such countries are much closer towards herd immunity), then you're an idiot. This is far from a deadly disease that is threatening to obliterate half of the human population.

And if you're going to use the "you're selfish and don't care about other people's lives" card, well, why didn't you advocate for lockdowns before when flu killed 250,000-500,000 people every year? And would that be a good idea in your opinion? Did you even think about those people? 

What about 18 million people that die each year from heart disease? Do you care about them? Do you think we should ban all McDonalds, Burger King and countless other 'restaurants', as well as many other foods, cigarettes, alcohol etc. and maybe force people to work out and fine them if they don't? If you don't, then you must be against science.

You can get into some ridiculous territory following your logic.

Heart disease isn't contagious, nor is the flu as deadly as COVID, Jesus fucking Christ. It's amazing alt right idiots like this are even allowed here. I've debunked all of your Whataboutisms and now you're backed into the "Well I'm not dying, so I don't care!'

You're as selfish and childish as they come.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Frylock

[vladorion]

27 minutes ago, Frylock said:

Heart disease isn't contagious, nor is the flu as deadly as COVID, Jesus fucking Christ. It's amazing alt right idiots like this are even allowed here. I've debunked all of your Whataboutisms and now you're backed into the "Well I'm not dying, so I don't care!'

You're as selfish and childish as they come.

Heart disease isn't contagious yet it kills 17 million people. My point has nothing to do with the mechanism by which those people are killed. What does it matter if they're killed by a virus or by shitty food? Flu isn't as deadly, yet it still kills up to half a million people a year. Where do you draw the line? How many lives are worth shutting down economies and how many lives aren't?

Lol, you haven't debunked anything, reduced my whole post to one phrase and reverted to exactly what I would expect from you - calling me selfish.

'Well I'm not dying, so I don't care!' - First, no where did I say this, but let's assume I did.

Now, you're not dying from the flu, do you care about those 250,000-500,000 people that die every year? If you care, then using your logic it's a good idea to impose strict lockdowns in order to prevent them from dying. Do you agree?

You're not dying from heart disease, do you care about those 17 million that do? If you do care, then by your logic it's a good idea to impose strict measures to prevent them from dying, i.e. banning fast food restaurants, cigarettes, alcohol etc.? Do you advocate for this or you don't care because you're not one of those people?

Care to address anything I've said in this and previous posts? Or is this the best you can do? 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, vladorion said:

If you think the difference is worth shutting down the economy of a whole country (and that's not accounting for the fact that such countries are much closer towards herd immunity), then you're an idiot. This is far from a deadly disease that is threatening to obliterate half of the human population.

There are pros and cons about whether or not to have mitigation restrictions. Yet let's be fair and objective. 

Death rate frequency is only one metric when considering public health. There could be a virus that has a 0% death rate, yet causes 40% of the population to experience paralysis and blindness. The hospitals become filled with people. Even though everyone survives, there is a major stress on the health care system and there are no beds or doctors available for other illness like strokes, broken bones, cancer treatment etc. The virus has a 0% death rate, yet we would still consider it to have a severe public health impact. 

2 hours ago, vladorion said:

What about 18 million people that die each year from heart disease? Do you care about them? Do you think we should ban all McDonalds, Burger King and countless other 'restaurants', as well as many other foods, cigarettes, alcohol etc. and maybe force people to work out and fine them if they don't? If you don't, then you must be against science.

What about starving children in Africa? What about abused children? What about the Uyghur people in China? What about. . . What about. . . 

These issues are not mutually exclusive. Yet one person cannot address every issue simultaneously. If I speak about a health care crisis in a pandemic, it doesn't mean that it is the only social issue.

The issues of crappy fast food, cigarettes etc are also social health issues, yet they also have distinctions. Each health care issue has it's own dynamics. For example, crappy fast food has a negative impact on social health. It increases obesity, diabetes and mortality. Yet there is a balance between individual freedom and social good. Most people would agree that we should not allow restaurants to serve Anthrax Burgers, regardless of how delicious they might be - because the social harm would be immediate and severe. Yet where to draw the line with crappy fast food gets trickier, because the health implications are not as immediately severe.

Things like cigarettes are totally different. If someone eats McDonald's burgers, it doesn't directly impact the health of another person. Yet if someone is smoking, it impacts people around them. Therefore, it is easier to justify having indoor smoking bans than having burger bans. Similarly, covid is contagious. If someone has covid in public, that puts people around them at risk. Therefore, it is much easier to justify public policies.

Yet I do agree with you about proportionality. We should administer our limited resources proportional to harm. 

 

[Epikur]

 

[hoodrow trillson]

2 hours ago, Frylock said:

Heart disease isn't contagious, nor is the flu as deadly as COVID, Jesus fucking Christ. It's amazing alt right idiots like this are even allowed here. I've debunked all of your Whataboutisms and now you're backed into the "Well I'm not dying, so I don't care!'

You're as selfish and childish as they come.

These asshats have been scoping out forums like these to come and just play pigeon chess.  It’s truly pathetic and I laugh at them lol.

[vladorion]

Here are some people that tell us to stay home and not to travel.

Steve Adler, the mayor of Austin, TX. Records a video, saying "We need to stay home if you can. This is not the time to relax", while being on a vacation.

Gavin Newsom, the governor of California. Attends a party of at least a dozen people after telling people not to gather in large groups.

Michael Hancock, the mayor of Denver. Flies to see his family for Thanksgiving after telling his staff not to travel.

Andrew Cuomo, tells people not to gather on Thanksgiving. Invites his mother and daughters to come visit him.

Supervisor Sheila Kuehl, member of Los Angeles Board of Supervisors. Votes for prohibiting outdoor dining. Dines outdoors following the voting.

Doesn't seem like these politicians who are fear mongering about the virus are so afraid of catching it or adamant about following their own rules.

[vladorion]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/french-authorities-investigate-clandestine-dinner-parties-in-paris

[vladorion]

Ferguson – in case you’ve forgotten during the roughly 17 years that have passed since the start of the pandemic – is an epidemiologist at Imperial College London. A professor of mathematical biology, he is the director of the UK Medical Research Council’s Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis, whose projection of 250,000 deaths in the UK if there were no change in strategy altered the course of its response to the pandemic. It also changed thinking in the United States.

Yesterday he resigned from Sage, the British government’s scientific advisory group for emergencies, after admitting to a newspaper that he “allowed” a woman he was in a relationship with to visit him twice during the lockdown. He had recovered and come out of self-isolation after testing positive with Covid-19, and the woman’s husband was reportedly sick at the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/when-a-scientist-s-love-life-is-bigger-news-than-covid-19-deaths-something-is-wrong-1.4246387

This is the guy who pushed for lockdowns, who can't even follow his own advice. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by vladorion

[Epikur]

 

[Frylock]

On 4/3/2021 at 5:22 PM, hoodrow trillson said:

These asshats have been scoping out forums like these to come and just play pigeon chess.  It’s truly pathetic and I laugh at them lol.

Only way to beat trolls is to ignore them. Am I missing something or does this forum really not have an ignore feature? This forum experience would be way better for me if I could put the trolls on an ignore list.

[BadHippie]

@Consept

Quote

Does China use a different to test to check deaths. Excess deaths have been high everywhere. 

No excess death here in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and so on. There is only excess death in countries with a bad medical healthcare and/or bad strategy to fight the pandemic in the beginning. (e.g. Italy, where they put Corona-Cases in retirement homes, because the hospitals were full, also they have a super old population, worst air in almost all of europe and so on)

Edited April 6, 2021 by BadHippie
correcting spelling; adding more details

[vladorion]

1 hour ago, Frylock said:

Only way to beat trolls is to ignore them. Am I missing something or does this forum really not have an ignore feature? This forum experience would be way better for me if I could put the trolls on an ignore list.

Sadly, in life you meet people who have different opinions than you. Calling them trolls and looking for an ignore button is a childish position.

[Forestluv]

16 hours ago, neutralempty said:

I agree with all your points, but this is a forum, you can still make act according to your closest assumption in daily life, but here you can express that you really do not know.

For sure. And not just this forum, there are many spaces we can create that involve groundless not-knowing. Yet grounding comes in handy at times.

[Leo Gura]

I've had enough of these silly debunking the pandemic threads.

If you want to debunk the pandemic, this forum is not for you. Go elsewhere and do that.