Discipline suffocates me

[tatsumaru]

Whenever I try to implement some routine and discipline in my life, some good habits I get this fear that I am trading my freedom away, that I am losing my humanity, my ability to adapt and improvise and instead am turning into this automaton. As Sadhguru put it, habits are a type of unconsciousness and for me unconsciousness is death. That all being said without any discipline and routine in my life I tend to spiral out of control and become a mess. What is the solution here?

[peanutspathtotruth]

It's really not easy, I'm regularly struggling with a similar "conflict". To me, the only thing keeping me on track is grounding myself in truth, and letting the discipline be an embodiment of that. Think of those monks and yogis who dedicate their life to truth through Karma Yoga or decades long meditation. There might still be ego, of course, but that's not the point. As long as you're as authentically acting FROM truth, you are as present in each moment as you can be. Presence, especially in those mundane, automated actions, is the "answer"  

[fridjonk]

Discipline and habits are not the same thing. Discipline actually leads to more freedom once you've gotten over the hurdle of starting it. You have to be willing to go through some discomfort to find the peace you seek. The ego will convince you that discipline is devilry and that you'll lose your humanity because it's uncomfortable for it. 

Now put on your corinthian helmet and fight it.  

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Whenever I try to implement some routine and discipline in my life, some good habits I get this fear that I am trading my freedom away, that I am losing my humanity, my ability to adapt and improvise and instead am turning into this automaton. As Sadhguru put it, habits are a type of unconsciousness and for me unconsciousness is death. That all being said without any discipline and routine in my life I tend to spiral out of control and become a mess. What is the solution here?

You’re making an enemy out of what you want by reducing the experience of it (the thought of the experience of it) to a means to an end. You’re attempting to utilize motivation (avoidance of unconsciousness and or death) to do so, not recognizing death is another word for you. So this fragments, or, ‘splits your energy’ and distorts focus. 

As an example... if what you want is to lose weight, get more fit, feel more energetic, take a minute to recognize exercising is what you want, feel the wanting of the experience. Notice thoughts about getting fit being about “fixing you”, and ‘shift’ back to this is what I want, and feel good about doing what you want to do. 

Motivation: To avoid unconsciousness, and or death. 

Inspiration: To enjoy life to the fullest, cause I actually love life. 

One of these is aligned with Truth (...”death”). 

Alignment of thought with feeling is like the difference between vacuuming a floor with and without the vacuum being plugged in. You can vacuum the floor either way, but without being plugged in, nothing is really changing. 

[tatsumaru]

30 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You’re making an enemy out of what you want by reducing the experience of it (the thought of the experience of it) to a means to an end. You’re attempting to utilize motivation (avoidance of unconsciousness and or death) to do so, not recognizing death is another word for you. So this fragments, or, ‘splits your energy’ and distorts focus. 

As an example... if what you want is to lose weight, get more fit, feel more energetic, take a minute to recognize exercising is what you want, feel the wanting of the experience. Notice thoughts about getting fit being about “fixing you”, and ‘shift’ back to this is what I want, and feel good about doing what you want to do. 

Motivation: To avoid unconsciousness, and or death. 

Inspiration: To enjoy life to the fullest, cause I actually love life. 

One of these is aligned with Truth (...”death”). 

Alignment of thought with feeling is like the difference between vacuuming a floor with and without the vacuum being plugged in. You can vacuum the floor either way, but without being plugged in, nothing is really changing. 

I get that it's the journey not the destination, however I am not sure I really want the experience of going to bed early every night, what I really want is feeling refreshed in the morning and having less mood swings due to a tired and irritable brain. But I also want to go to bed when I feel like it, not when the clock says 22:00.

[Nahm]

12 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I get that it's the journey not the destination,

Given that you get that... 

12 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

however I am not sure I really want the experience of going to bed early every night, what I really want is feeling refreshed in the morning and having less mood swings due to a tired and irritable brain. But I also want to go to bed when I feel like it, not when the clock says 22:00.

...how does it change your perspective about this? 

[tatsumaru]

21 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Given that you get that... 

...how does it change your perspective about this? 

I have to admit that I quite resonate with the notion that I am making an enemy out of my own experience through positioning it as a means to an end in my mind. I can see how that would lead to a gradual build up of resistance that would eventually overcome my willpower and the whole effort will collapse and I will have to start from scratch when I restore my willpower. However this realization alone doesn't seem to be sufficient for me to start enjoying a strict routine. The way I feel like right now is that I don't really want to do any of these things and that I am doing them only because I don't like where my life is going when I am not doing them. So I am not sure how to like them when I feel that they are fundamentally not pleasant to do. I am not sure it's just the perspective, otherwise I would be able to convince myself that anything even stabbing myself is also enjoyable no? Isn't there some sort of inherent unlikeability to chores and routines?
 

[Gesundheit]

Then don't be disciplined.

When something feels suffocating, it means that it's not authentic enough to you. Follow what's most authentic to you, even if it is lack of discipline. You can't always inhale, sometimes you have to exhale, and that's fine.

Have no fear. You will come around eventually. Now is the time to shed the inauthentic self.

[hyruga]

I have never seen a self help book that said you have to sleep by 10pm. Most only mentioned you must have a good night sleep. So if you miss a good night sleep, make up for it the next day if possible. 

Don't sacrifice too much sleep as your health will be affected. 

[Nahm]

@tatsumaru

Possibly, this brings “my willpower” into question as the ‘blockage’. It’s hard to imagine how exhausting living my life would be if I was thinking in terms of my will power.  Which brought Alcoholics Anonymous to mind as an example. That program started out “take lsd, see truth, free yourself of your ‘self’... no self no problem, and from thoughts of self, limiting beliefs, One is liberated... and there’s not quite the same inclination for alcohol anymore”. With the discrimination of psychedelics, that program became “surrender your will to God, fully admit you simply can not do this, here’s 12 steps”. 

47 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

restore my willpower. However this realization alone doesn't seem to be sufficient for me to start enjoying a strict routine.

It’s possible the resistance is in the way what you want is thought of, with the ‘for my willpower’, and ‘not sufficient for me’ - to start enjoying... a ‘strict’ routine. If enjoying now is contingent... and that contingency is ‘something or me’...that contingency can never be met... because the very source of the enjoyment, of good feeling...is the same one holding the contingency. 

Is ‘strict’ really that enjoyable.... as a way of thinking, framing things up? Outside the right mood, evening, ad dominatrix, I don’t really feel that it is. 

Who’s disciplining who when there are not two?  At least in bed you could point to Hagatha. ?⛓?. When it’s a thought about oneself disciplining oneself, where to point? Maybe the thumb tells us the answer to that ‘riddle’. 

Consider the paradox of conditioning, and the importance of the scrutinizing of a thought of an experience...vs...the actuality of the direct experience...

Feeling, one’s absolute best... that’s unconditional. Don’t like how you are feeling, there’s something to let go, a belief, a condition. 

Body mind, an appearance of being, of fields, of whatever other label we’d like to play pretend by adding.... feeling one’s (same exact one appearing as) absolute best, in, of, and as the very spheres One is Being... well that seems like the total opposite, in the fitness conditioning regard. Inspection of thought vs direct experience.... have you experienced peak physical conditioning? Are you reference that experience, or a thought about it? How do you know how worthwhile, how good feeling an experience is? Only directly. 
 

47 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

The way I feel like right now is that I don't really want to do any of these things and that I am doing them only because I don't like where my life is going when I am not doing them. So I am not sure how to like them when I feel that they are fundamentally not pleasant to do.

Were this a movie, it could be entitled “Tatsumaru Vs Well Being”. In the movie, Tatsumaru would totally win. In experience, experience is literally made of well being, and there is no separate self, and there is no “Vs” transpiring. Only a battle appearing to transpire in thoughts, specifically self referential unchecked thoughts, ‘twoness’. 

How to resolve? 

There’s no mountain. There’s one molehill at a time, and even still, that’s if I believe that perspective and label. 

Well Being = What’s Happening = Self. 

The Way of Well Being is Allowing. 

Could you allow five minutes of exercise? 

What if the direct experience, the music, the flow, the energy...actually turns out to be WAY better feeling that thoughts about yourself? 

The paradigm of motive & motivation can only be employed so far. Inspiration naturally comes next. 

47 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

So I am not sure how to like them when I feel that they are fundamentally not pleasant to do. I am not sure it's just the perspective, otherwise I would be able to convince myself that anything even stabbing myself is also enjoyable no? Isn't there some sort of inherent unlikeability to chores and routines?

It so is just the perspective. There are not two of you, such that you’re actually “convincing yourself”. It would be much more accurate to recognize this is how you’re fooling yourself.  Try pointing to this self you’re trying so hard to convince, and laugh in the relief 

[Epikur]

28 minutes ago, hyruga said:

I have never seen a self help book that said you have to sleep by 10pm. Most only mentioned you must have a good night sleep. So if you miss a good night sleep, make up for it the next day if possible. 

Don't sacrifice too much sleep as your health will be affected. 

Going early to bed is very important. That is where most of the mess starts.

[AtheisticNonduality]

 

[LastThursday]

@tatsumaru I strongly resonate with your struggle. It's a constant fight against my own tendencies to just want do what the hell I want without being restricted. Even typing now on this forum, I should be working, I have a pile of work. 

The only way I've found to live with it, is to surrender to my need for freedom regularly. So on occasion I say f**k it and go for a drive or have an afternoon nap or whatever I feel like doing in the moment. It's a kind of nervous energy I need to go with. Sometimes I suffer paralysis, where I want to go and be free, but I force myself to try and be disciplined - it's stressful and time wasting.

When I need to be disciplined I do it in short spurts, or I try and install routine, especially around sleep/waking up and eating. My logical brain knows that if I want bigger freedoms, I need to give up the smaller freedoms - that gives me just about enough motivation to be an adult, feed myself, wash myself and successfully hold down a full time job. But sometimes the restriction is just too much and I'll simply give up all routine or discipline, knowing that it will pass. 

I can really understand how people with stronger mental health problems find it impossible to get any traction in their lives - to get stuff done.

If I really examine it, the sense of restriction comes from three places: other people's expectations of me, the needs of survival and my own thoughts and emotions. It's actually possible to tell most people to politely f**k off and stop bothering me - but don't expect them to be friendly. Survival can be slimmed down to its bare essentials (aka minimalism). And to balance my thoughts I can set up helpful habits and routines.

Back to work.

Edited March 29, 2021 by LastThursday

[universe]

What do you want to achieve?

Habits can be nice to get shit done and to develop mastery. But you can achieve many great things without going to bed early and other habits.

Make your goal something worthwhile that is big enough to sacrifice freedom. Or let your life become a mess if that brings you closer to your goal.

Look man, you already have habits. Everyone does. What you are afraid of is changing these habits. Because if you want your life to change, you need to change. That means some part of you has to die. Death is inevitible for change. There is no getting around that.

Accept the death of that part of you that needs to let go. Or don't... and stay where you are at.

[tatsumaru]

52 minutes ago, universe said:

What do you want to achieve?

Habits can be nice to get shit done and to develop mastery. But you can achieve many great things without going to bed early and other habits.

Make your goal something worthwhile that is big enough to sacrifice freedom. Or let your life become a mess if that brings you closer to your goal.

Look man, you already have habits. Everyone does. What you are afraid of is changing these habits. Because if you want your life to change, you need to change. That means some part of you has to die. Death is inevitible for change. There is no getting around that.

Accept the death of that part of you that needs to let go. Or don't... and stay where you are at.

Actually I have very little habits. Most of my daily life is improvisation or just mindless time wasting.

[SamC]

On 2021-03-28 at 2:39 PM, tatsumaru said:

Whenever I try to implement some routine and discipline in my life, some good habits I get this fear that I am trading my freedom away, that I am losing my humanity, my ability to adapt and improvise and instead am turning into this automaton.

@tatsumaru From what I've understood from what you have written,.You see it as this^^^

( being able to improvise and adapt to life's " uncertainty 

Quote

That all being said without any discipline and routine in my life I tend to spiral out of control and become a mess. What is the solution here?

VS this^^^ ( being disciplined, dedicated and moving forward towards your goals and what's " most important to you" and not be the opposite of that which you call as a mess)

Do you notice that this basically is a war between two parts of yourself? Do you notice that this basicially is a lose win situation where you never will be fully satisfied because the other part will always be repressed by choosing the either or the other?

Now to the solution.

I understand that you feel like you will spiral out of control and that you perceive it as bad. It's very normal to feel like that and totally valid. The question you should contemplate however is why that is bad? What is the worst that could happen? Does bad even exist? Try Contemplateing that and see where the answers to those questions will take you.

Furthermore, you need to stop playing this zero sum game where some part of you will always lose and instead let both parts integrate and be expressed fully and so that both parts are on the ride.

Look at the two parts or "polarities" of the divine masculine and feminine. Ideally we don't want any part to be repressed by another part becuase what happens than? It becomes a shadow. See toxic masculinity/ femininity for example.

The goal of the universe is for all parts/ energies to fully express themselves and unite towards a common goal. Do you think the parts within yourself are an exception to that rule? No it's 'litterly the same becuase the outer and inner world is the same thing.

In other words follow love and your intuition. What do you want to do right now? Whatever the answer to that question is, do that. Don't force yourself, love yourself.. all parts of yourself and let them to do what they want to do.

Hope that helps

Love

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by SamC

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, SamC said:

@tatsumaru From what I've understood from what you have written,.You see it as this^^^

( being able to improvise and adapt to life's " uncertainty 

VS this^^^ ( being disciplined, dedicated and moving forward towards your goals and what's " most important to you" and not be the opposite of that which you call as a mess)

Do you notice that this basically is a war between two parts of yourself? Do you notice that this basicially is a lose win situation where you never will be fully satisfied because the other part will always be repressed by choosing the either or the other?

Now to the solution.

I understand that you feel like you will spiral out of control and that you perceive it as bad. It's very normal to feel like that and totally valid. The question you should contemplate however is why that is bad? What is the worst that could happen? Does bad even exist? Try Contemplateing that and see where the answers to those questions will take you.

Furthermore, you need to stop playing this zero sum game where some part of you will always lose and instead let both parts integrate and be expressed fully and so that both parts are on the ride.

Look at the two parts or "polarities" of the divine masculine and feminine. Ideally we don't want any part to be repressed by another part becuase what happens than? It becomes a shadow. See toxic masculinity/ femininity for example.

The goal of the universe is for all parts/ energies to fully express themselves and unite towards a common goal. Do you think the parts within yourself are an exception to that rule? No it's 'litterly the same becuase the outer and inner world is the same thing.

In other words follow love and your intuition. What do you want to do right now? Whatever the answer to that question is, do that. Don't force yourself, love yourself.. all parts of yourself and let them to do what they want to do.

Hope that helps

Love

"What's the worst that could happen?" isn't a good question in my opinion. We really don't know what's the worst that could happen, because we aren't aware of all the things that could happen. Maybe you just end up homeless, or maybe you end up obese with cancer and diabetes homeless or maybe you go to a Buddhist hell where demons peel your skin for 10 aeons who knows. I never thought this was a good exercise.
If I simply do what I want to do it will be a mix of following my inspiration and taking drugs, eating burgers and descending into madness. I can't allow myself that second part. I don't want to be sick and fat and tired all the time not able to tie my own shoes etc.

[SamC]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

"What's the worst that could happen?" isn't a good question in my opinion. We really don't know what's the worst that could happen, because we aren't aware of all the things that could happen. Maybe you just end up homeless, or maybe you end up obese with cancer and diabetes homeless or maybe you go to a Buddhist hell where demons peel your skin for 10 aeons who knows. I never thought this was a good exercise.
If I simply do what I want to do it will be a mix of following my inspiration and taking drugs, eating burgers and descending into madness. I can't allow myself that second part. I don't want to be sick and fat and tired all the time not able to tie my own shoes etc.

@tatsumaru How do you know? Have you even tried? 

Listen bro, take it or leave it. This was my solution for your exact problem. I denied myself everything and was hyper disciplined for my whole life and beated myself up as soon as I gave in on a craving.

" I wasn't allowed to watch youtube"

"I should mediate 1 hour every single day"

" I should never waste time and if I do, fuck myself for wasting time"

For me- this was not an enjoyable life, eventhough I thought it was the only way forward... because of fear.

I wanted to do all of this stuff because of fear, not because of love which than lead me to a more holistic approach which meant following the way that was the most self loving aka doing what would make me feel good... and guess what.

I still mediate

I still work out.

I put in more hours towards my goals

And I am driven by more love and less fear, and it was one of the best decisions Ive made... eventhough I was completely terrified to make that call

Here are some videos that helped me. The first one was the one that got me to out of this paradigm. Again take it or leave it... but atleast fucking investigate if there could be some truth to what I am saying before dismissing it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by SamC

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, SamC said:

@tatsumaru How do you know? Have you even tried? 

Listen bro, take it or leave it. This was my solution for your exact problem. I denied myself everything and was hyper disciplined for my whole life and beated myself up as soon as I gave in on a craving.

" I wasn't allowed to watch youtube"

"I should mediate 1 hour every single day"

" I should never waste time and if I do, fuck myself for wasting time"

For me- this was not an enjoyable life, eventhough I thought it was the only way forward... because of fear.

I wanted to do all of this stuff because of fear, not because of love which than lead me to a more holistic approach which meant following the way that was the most self loving aka doing what would make me feel good... and guess what.

I still mediate

I still work out.

I put in more hours towards my goals

And I am driven by more love and less fear, and it was one of the best decisions Ive made... eventhough I was completely terrified to make that call

Here are some videos that helped me. The first one was the one that got me to out of this paradigm. Again take it or leave it... but atleast fucking investigate if there could be some truth to what I am saying before dismissing it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

read what I said before making accusations. I never said love wasn't fine or that listening to your heart wasn't fine. All I said is that asking the question "what's the worst that could happen" is simply a fool's game. Of course I am resonating with the idea of following your heart.

As for trying to do what I've wanted of course I tried, and I've been fat, sick and on a miserable job and that certainly didn't make me happy. There are prices to pay for stupid decisions. Yes, not beating yourself up after eating a hamburger helps not to spiral out of control sure.

So it's not as easy as doing what you want to do. Certain impulses are compulsions, certain desires come from the heart and not all of the impulses are worth following.

[Epikur]