Why do the rich get richer and poor get poorer?

[Gesundheit]

9 minutes ago, intotheblack said:

I grew up in stage 4 - financially stable but scarcity mindset.  My dad made a lot of money, paid the bills etc. but it wasn’t shared with his family. He became a miser.  I basically grew up thinking we couldn’t afford things, but my dad was low-key hoarding a lot of money.  
Kind of small scale what’s happening with the rich and the poor.  The top rich are hoarding all the wealth.

Me too, until I became 16-17 years old. Now, I'm at stage 2.

I wish you growth and prosperity.

[integral]

@Gesundheit The mix up seems to be with the individual and collective perspectives. Everything said makes sense from the collective perspective. From the individual perspective, "What can i do to climb the ladder?", its not a perspective that "is" the big picture. From there we see there are a long list of things we can do and learn to help ourselves. The big picture collective perspective understands that they are being held back depended on their wealth class level/life circumstances (location on earth, luck). The individual perspective is about aptitudes, personal strategies, motivation, emotions, learning entrepreneurial skills, people skills, self-development skills... continues. 

(unhealthy) "I am screwed" is when the individual blames the collective for there problems. Instead of using collective insights as a tool to help them climb the ladder. Your not screwed your disadvantaged, no one is telling you its all mindset, but if you have no mindset you have no future. At no point am i saying its the individuals fault...

Edited April 5, 2021 by integral

[integral]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Rich people are responsible for poverty, and they're responsible for finding solutions. This is an indisputable fact for anyone with common sense. Let's not make the villain to be the hero, or the hero to be the villain here. Poor people are not lazy or unintelligent. They're just unlucky and oppressed. And they're used and exploited more than most.

This was something you interpreted, we never said this. 

The word mindset was never being used as blame. 

At this moment you have to get yourself out of poverty regardless of the tower of systems limiting you and culture that misled you. Whats the game plan? = mindset = individual perspective 

In cuba they seduce vacationers, marry them to leave the country. 100% the right move. Wtv it takes.

The healthy individual perspective is working with the hand its delt and moving forward.

Edited April 5, 2021 by integral

[Gesundheit]

@integral The theme of this thread is collective. It isn't about individuals. So, my posts and perspective fit perfectly here. If there's a mix up happening, it's definitely not on my end. This is the society subforum, not the self-actualization.

As well, I am 100% aware of everything you said. But I also am realistic. So, of course I will keep trying, but I know in the back of my mind that my chances are extremely low.

16 hours ago, Hardkill said:

So then, how does a homeless person ever get out of being poor through no fault of his/her own?

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

They keep hitting their heads against the wall on the hopes that someday it'll crack. AND on the hopes that they won't be crashed by the wrecking ball of the rich.

That is to prevent the frustration that comes with failed unrealistic expectations. I used to have high hopes and unrealistic expectations in the past, and they only made me bitter and cynical, and they caused me suffering. Now that I'm more educated and aware, I don't have to fall into that trap again.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

14 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@integral the theme topic of this thread is collective. It isn't about individuals. So, my posts and perspective fit perfectly here. If there's a mix up happening, it's definitely not on my end. This is the society subforum, not self-actualization.

A answer that includes both the individual and the collective perspectives are part of a holistic understanding of this topic. They cant be seperated. 

How the collective shapes the individual and how the individual shapes the collective. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by integral

[integral]

This might be useful. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by integral

[Gesundheit]

27 minutes ago, integral said:

A answer that includes both the individual and the collective perspectives are part of a holistic understanding of this topic. They cant be seperated. 

The two perspectives aren't equally valid or important. If there was a good collective ground, you wouldn't even need to work on your individual skills as much.

And jeez! You've literally got it upside down. Rich people are enjoying their lazy lives while you're asking the poor to push themselves more. We're already doing everything we can, and more. And you're still telling us to work more? Are you a slave master, bro? Do you have any sadistic tendencies? Or do you really not know your own worth? You're being used, and you're willing to be used even more. Wake up! They're suffocating us and you're telling us to breathe harder. It doesn't work that way.

One possible, although unrealistic, collective solution to poverty could be a universal strike that disempowers the rich and throws them out of whack. Instead of pushing more, maybe we should all start pushing less.

Pushing more is not the solution, nor is it part of it. It's a coping mechanism at best. In fact, it only adds more to the collective problem. And this will actually be proven in the future when the gap becomes too big that there's 0 money in the possession of the poor. At that point the rich will go broke because their money won't have any value.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

lmaooo, definitely didn't mean that.

How can we change the collective for the better with out understanding how the individual shapes the collective? Its going to backfire.  

[AndrewAnderson]

On 26.03.2021 at 4:01 PM, datamonster said:

@The_Truth_Seeker Think about it this way.

Person A has 100k to invest and manages to achieve a 10% return. So, after a year he has 110k.

Person B already has 1M and realizes the same 10% return. Person B now has 1.1M. 

The difference in profit between A and B after one year is 90k. 

If in the second year both again make a 10% return, A now has 121k, and B has 1.21M. 

The difference in profit after two years is 189k. It has more than doubled.

Can you see how this difference will grow bigger and bigger over time even though they're both achieving the same return?

And this is not even according for reinvesting the profits.

So, basically it's a lot easier to make more money if you already have money than it is to make money if you don't have any.

Wow, this is a great example that doesn't touch on psychology.Statistics only, thank you!

Edited April 5, 2021 by AndrewAnderson

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, integral said:

How can we change the collective for the better with out understanding how the individual shapes the collective?

Yes, both perspectives are important and valid, but not to the same degree.

If we want equality, we should support equality, not inequality. You see what I'm saying?

Understanding is important as long as it matches with our objectives and with reality. Otherwise, it's either useless, selfish, and/or deluded.

 

[Gesundheit]

4 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

You're identifying an issue with Capitalism that has been going on since its inception.

It's all just a lack of representation, what we need is more unions, higher and more taxes, as well as 20% worker representation of the corporate boards. 

Tell that to the poor African kids.

[Consept]

@Gesundheit

First off apologies for the short answer previously, i did say id come and give a fuller one later, been away for the weekend so its been hard to find the time. I appreciate you also sharing your situation and i do get where youre coming from as ive said previously. 

What became very apparent to me through this discussion is that we are talking about different situations. Youre talking about being poor in a third world country and agree this situation is like playing life on the hardest level, it is extremely difficult to get out of this situation and realistically there has to be significant change on a society level for it to be the norm that people are able to get out. Even more so if its a political problem like with Venezuela or Syria. Generally it will be a slow process for these countries to improve and, according to trends in poverty, this situation is improving - https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/global-poverty-health-crime-literacy-good-news , although i appreciate it doesnt feel like that. 

I absolutely agree with you that poor people are not required to find solution on a society wide level, even if they did most likely it wouldnt affect much. This of course is what rich people should do and to be fair some do, not all but some. So either way poor people are not in control of this, literally the only thing they can control is their mindset. Now i understand your perspective is tempered by your situation which was out of your hands of course, youve put yourself at a 2 on your scale. When ive talked about mindset what ive meant is that if youre in the western world ie western Europe, USA, etc then most likely youll start at a level 3 or 4 you wouldnt really go lower than that, there are homeless people but these are usually the result of other issues or terrible home lives, its not really the norm. So in the case that you are 3 or 4 mindset can have a huge factor in getting you to 5 or 6 and potentially higher but that wouldnt be the norm. Youve even said if youre at 4 you may have a scarcity mindset, so what would push you up is not having that. 

I think what youre getting at is that if you buy into this system and just work harder and change your mindset that youre tacitly accepting it and youre part of the problem. The thing is either way you have to be in the system, yes the system is fucked but the question is, were things worse previously and is there more opportunity now? The system doesnt have to be torn down it just needs to work better and give people a better chance. The internet means you can make $ or £s in western markets whilst still living in the third world. You can setup business that can sell across the world. On a more practical level theres more freedom of movement so potentially you can get out of your country and move to one with more opportunities. Theres freedom of movement in the EU, countries like Spain are allowing those from countries they colonised to move there and get residency like Colombia. 

So i think its better to build on this system that we have and yeah there will always be a small percentage of super rich people as a legacy type thing but i would say things are improving, however i get where youre coming from and it is unfair but hopefully it continues to change. 

[Gesundheit]

40 minutes ago, Consept said:

@Gesundheit

things are improving

 

48 minutes ago, Consept said:

@Gesundheit

according to trends in poverty, this situation is improving - https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/global-poverty-health-crime-literacy-good-news , although i appreciate it doesnt feel like that.

That's one sneaky article that I will deconstruct and prove to you how the apparent improvement is actually a facade for the rotting garbage behind it. It's late here, so I'll get back to you later.

Appreciate your warm words and support. And I also highly respect your intelligence. You've summed a good part of the discussion in a few words.

[Gesundheit]

@Consept Hi!

18 hours ago, Consept said:

@Gesundheit

literally the only thing the poor can control is their mindset.

Well, that's true until it becomes a gaslighting technique.

I get what you're saying about mindset when related to suffering on a personal level, it is important for the poor to realize how their thoughts can create suffering for them.

If you're talking about mindset as a money generating strategy, then you might be missing something about the actual experience of poverty, which is lack of infrastructure. You talked about the internet as a business tool, but there are many many details that go into this that are granted in non-poor countries but require active and conscious creation in poor countries. For example, we don't have PayPal or any services as such here. We speak a foreign language, too. So, it's not like anyone can choose the online path. An online business usually requires a different skill than an actual business usually requires, which requires new education, which requires time, effort, practice, and sometimes money. Building the business is another thing entirely, because you'd need to make sacrifices that are essential for the business, even if the sacrifices they're even more essential for your livelihood. That's to answer the scarcity mindset part. And even then your chances aren't that high, and you could fail easily because you're going down that path alone without any guidance or support. As well, infrastructure includes technology, such as a phone, a laptop, etc... These things are not as easy to get or upgrade as in other countries.

I'm not saying bypassing these challenges is impossible, but it takes HUGE extra effort and many sacrifices. And actually, I'm on that path, so that's why I am familiar with all those obstacles and have already bypassed some of them, but still I haven't started my business yet or even earned a cent. I am working on this project hoping that it will pan out, but it's very risky. The next few months will probably decide whether I will move a level up or down.  I will either get my shit together or struggle to survive even more. Basically, the problem here is that I'm starting from below zero where I'm compromising some things in order to make way for other things. In a better country, that wouldn't need to happen because I would be given a head start, or more accurately I wouldn't be this disadvantaged and handicapped. Leo is now looking for a video editor, and I already applied for the job, but I know my chances are extremely low because I can't meet many of the minimum requirements that he specified. I know how to edit, but I don't have a good internet that can download/upload more than 1GB per day. Nor do I have the hard disks to store the files. Nor do I have a high end PC that can handle video editing smoothly. It's really as simple as an online job can be, but even that I have no access to. So you see how even the online path is not easy at all. The issue of infrastructure and access is extremely limiting. I only know 2 people that are working online and earning money, but they've been in it for years until it started paying off, and it's not that much, either. They're just getting by slightly better than others. They're backsliding at a slower pace, that's all. I, on the other hand, am barely just getting started online. Why haven't I started earlier? Well, I didn't have a stable internet until last year. Why didn't I have stable internet before? Because there were no phones in my area to have an ADSL connection. The post office was damaged and dismantled for years and they only recently fixed it.

The point is, it's not just harder. It's EXTREMELY hard. All odds are literally against us, and we're mainly playing in order not to lose.

____________________________

Now, to the link:

Quote

"This is probably the most important chart on this list. The extraordinary rate of economic growth in India and China — as well as slower but still significant growth in other developing countries — has led to a huge decline in the share of the world population living on less than $1.90 a day, from nearly 35 percent in 1987 to under 11 percent in 2013.

That’s a low bar for what counts as poverty, and some development experts argue we should be using a global poverty line of $10-15 a day instead. But that very debate is a sign of the tremendous progress made in recent decades."

This is from the link you posted. And the following image is from google:

Why am I posting this image? The answer is highlighted in bold above.

At this point, there is an important distinction to make: Money vs. Resources. Or basically, Money vs. Gold.

The article you gave me is silly and wrong, actually. It is literally giving false information and they're misleading.

If there is one thing that I have learned about economy during this crisis is that you should never trust currency. It's the worst criterion to take when scale measuring an economical phenomenon. There are various reasons why it's a sneaky gaslighting technique that's probably being used on purpose by the article authors, or they're simply naive and don't understand how economy works. When someone claims that poverty is declining and then presents their statistics in terms of the USD, then they're either sneaky pros or naive amateurs. From the looks of it, it seems like an amateur site, but I couldn't know for sure. The truth is that poverty is increasing regardless of all the claims or even the appearances. It's an indisputable fact that no amount of articles can disprove. If you compare gold prices between 1987 and 2013 (the same period claimed by the link), you'll know that poverty is increasing even though it might appear otherwise depending on your location. The apparent decline is not real or sustainable because it's an aftereffect of the industrial revolution and the increased usability of resources due to new technologies, plus the technological advancements like the internet. All of which are giving the appearance of slight improvement, instead of what such breakthroughs should have actually done. Not only the world should not be having any poor people by now, but it also should have been at least thrice as populated, imo.

It's important to remember that most resources are finite, and they will get exhausted eventually, inevitably. We will shift towards renewable energy resources, but the material that's required to run them is limited and will not be distributed equally. The rich will be in possession of most the materials, and the rest will be fighting over nothing, like it has always been. And perhaps most importantly, poverty will still exist as a phenomenon and it will increase even more. The point of this is to say that the current situation is not promising at all. I mean unless we discover some new technology, or find some way(s) to extract new materials, like a different planet for example, then the band aid that this system is using will eventually fall off, and all the nasty stuff that have been festering all that time will be finally exposed, but at that point it will be too late. The thing with crashed economies is that they give you a preview for what the universal economy will be like in the future, regardless of the time required to get there. Maybe we'll take a long time to get there, or maybe there will be WWIII and we'll get there faster, who knows? The main issue of inequality will still be neither addressed or solved. And the earth will probably have to experience a new era.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Gesundheit