Why do the rich get richer and poor get poorer?

[LfcCharlie4]

@Hansu I agree with you, we should be focusing on increasing everyone's wealth, prosperity and chances in life, to the benefit of the whole.  

There is clear systemic & corruption issues in society, but I think the rhetoric of 'Eat the Rich', 'Kill the rich' just creates further division, along with a victim mentality, for example I saw on Twitter recently something like 'If you vote Tory (Conservative) you're a cu** and deserve to die.' Like what 'Tory' is going to read that and go, you know what I've suddenly changed all of my beliefs, none. Just creates more division instead of Unity. 

Also, let's not forget you have the BEST chance across all of history to make yourself wealthy, I would rather live now being born as 'Working Class' then literally any other time in history. You can start making money on the internet with $0, literally. You can also build a 6 figure business within a year of so if you do it right, with the right strategy.

Then comes in the mindset & knowledge of Economics & the monetary system. In the UK a lottery winner of £10's Millions went broke, so would a lot of 'Working Class / Middle Class' people simply because they aren't taught about how Money works, how to preserve it, how to grow it etc. 

Financial Education is the place to start, as well as strategically starting an Online Business you resonate with to create freedom in your life, then you're free to pursue whatever you want. 

[DocWatts]

The idea that poor people living in countries like the US are Materially better off than 17th Century Monarchs, while not untrue, is a rationale that's been Weaponized against poor people and used to undermine the lived experience of Poverty. And it's usually employed by people who are directly benefiting from exploitative socio-economic systems set up for thier own benefit.

Yes, King George or Thomas Jefferson didn't have access to an iPhone or a Nintendo Switch, but that's an incredibly Reductionist way of looking at it.

Study after study has shown that the stresses of Poverty damages people's emotional Health and psychological well being. In places like the US, the poor have a lower life expectancy (around 10 years less than middle class or wealthy people). The poor also spend much more of thier time being demeaned and dehumanized, and bear the brunt of exploitative labor practices in out socio-economic system.

The poor routinely have thier political rights violated due to Voting Suppression efforts targeted at them. They are much more likely to be overpoliced, and to end up in our Prison System where a bevy of Human Rights abuses awaits them.

On top of all that in places like the US there's a negative social stigma attached to be poor; namely that you're lazy and thus deserve to be poor. Which is the equivalent of a a schoolyard bully punching you in the face, and saying 'why are you hitting yourself?,

Edited March 29, 2021 by DocWatts

[Gesundheit]

5 hours ago, Hansu said:

Wealth inequality is literally a non issue, in fact its GOOD! It means that the nation is capable of sourcing money from an overprivileged part of society and putting that money into building the nation.

Organized crime is literally a non issue, in fact its GOOD! It means that the nation is capable of sourcing power from an overprivileged part of society and putting that power into guarding the nation.

That's Orange mindset.

Green mindset focuses on serving the people instead of worshipping some imaginary borders.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

Alot of answer here, but maybe the most obvious one was omitted.

Poverty is a mind set. Beyond all the circumstances that made them poor and kept them poor, they remain poor because they know nothing about accumulating wealth. 

When a poor person wins the lottery or inherits they squander it. 

Rich get richer because they know how to be rich. Poor people dont. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by integral

[integral]

If we take any millionaire or billionaire, strip them of all their money and contacts and trow them into a 3rd world country with 1.90$ a day to survive on. They will come out of it as millionaires in a few years. Because they know exactly how to be rich.  

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Please tell that to the 1 billion kids who live in poverty around the world without access to education, healthcare, housing, nutrition, sanitation or water, and the 360 million of them who live in extreme poverty, forced to somehow survive on less than 1.90$ a day.

yeee, not saying poverty is their fault, im saying in the end their poor because they had no opportunities to learn how not to be. Their tuck at lower levels of development do to circumstance. 

[integral]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Besides, what are you even gonna build if you lack even the most basic necessities like shelter, clean water, education, infrastructure, and your government is too corrupt to let you start a legal business, and you can't even open a bank account because you're too poor, and your currency is so unstable that all savings you might be able to accumulate will be rendered worthless within a year?

Thats true, there are some circumstances that are pretty bad. but we still have poor people in first world countries. Even given opportunity a poor person remains poor. 

If we gave a million dollars to everyone here, we will quickly realize that its not so simple to hold on to it. Rich first world capitalist systems are not built to help you magically grow your wealth, they are built to take every dollar you have as quickly as possible.  People that earned that million know how its made, they know how to keep it and how to grow it. They know how to make money. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by integral

[integral]

@Zeitgeist Seems we are talking from different perspectives here.

"i" perspective: mindset

"systems" perspective: circumstance

I agree with what your saying. It seems what your describing is a extreme condition of circumstance. Theres a spectrum from very unfavourable to very favourable. Mindset is the same way. 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by integral

[Hansu]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

For billions of people there's absolutely no way to pull themselves out of it even if they were the smartest people in the world. 

Many self-actualizers seem to have this illusion that anyone can get their shit together.

Getting born rich does not give you easy life because you have lots of money, its because being born into a rich family gives you access to free life coaches who's advice is worth 500 dollars an hour and peer support when you start your first business venture etc. The less fortunate bunch of us have to rely on books and learning through our mistakes.

[Hansu]

59 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If you can afford books and have the time and ability to read them, you're already part of the top 10%.

Globally speaking this is very true. In western countries people in "poverty" can easily access the information highway tho.

[Gesundheit]

@integral You clearly have no idea what poverty is.

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I highly doubt that. On 1.90$ a day you're gonna spend the entire day just trying not to die. There won't be any time left to start a business.

Besides, what are you even gonna build if you lack even the most basic necessities like shelter, clean water, education, infrastructure, and your government is too corrupt to let you start a legal business, and you can't even open a bank account because you're too poor, and your currency is so unstable that all savings you might be able to accumulate will be rendered worthless within a year?

Thank you. I live in a poor third world country and this is exactly my situation. You described it perfectly.

I mean who wouldn't want to be rich? I cringed a couple times when I entered this thread when I saw how ignorant some comments are. I would be glad to trade places with anyone who claims that poverty is a mindset, and I'm willing to be proven wrong. For the ones who claim that poverty is not a big deal, raise your hand if you're ready for the challenge, or stop spreading gaslighting ignorance that further empowers the rich and further disempowers the poor. How do you accuse the poor of irresponsibility when they don't even have anything to take responsibility of?! Wake up!

It's enough misery to be poor then to have rich people dismissing your struggles and blame you for what is clearly their responsibility.

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, integral said:

If we take any millionaire or billionaire, strip them of all their money and contacts and trow them into a 3rd world country with 1.90$ a day to survive on. They will come out of it as millionaires in a few years. Because they know exactly how to be rich.

That's wrong. It's more likely that a western millionaire would have a mental breakdown and experience an existential crisis the moment you throw them into a 3rd world country. Trust me they wouldn't last even for a few weeks due to the huge difference in quality of life. You're severely underestimating life under difficult conditions, obviously because you don't have any experience of it.

I've lived on both sides. I was raised in a fairly good family with fairly good life circumstances, but things went down to hell right after I turned 17 years old. So, I know how easy life is in a developed country. Everything is served to you on a silver platter. You just gotta not be lazy and then work a little bit, and you'll be fine. The more effort you put, the more successful you'll be. That's how my life was before I turned 17. And that's how I got into the top university in the entire country. But then it all turned around and there was and still is nothing I can do about it. And even then, and now, I'm still always actively working on a plan to move out asap because I don't want to be a victim of poor circumstances. (which btw is nearly impossible given my financial situation and the country's poor economy). But that doesn't mean I'm not an actual victim. It just means that I'm not willing to remain one.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

@Gesundheit It seems i didn't think this one through enough. What your saying makes sense.

Poverty as a mind set is still a thing doe, just not the way i tried to point it out. As in if we take a rich person strip them of everything, they will bounce back as long as they are in a first world country with opportunities. The bottom comment explains abit more. They are educated. While poor people in rich countries are poor because they know nothing. Life conditions. 

12 hours ago, Hansu said:

Getting born rich does not give you easy life because you have lots of money, its because being born into a rich family gives you access to free life coaches who's advice is worth 500 dollars an hour and peer support when you start your first business venture etc. The less fortunate bunch of us have to rely on books and learning through our mistakes.

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by integral

[Gesundheit]

8 hours ago, integral said:

@Gesundheit 

Poverty as a mind set is still a thing doe, just not the way i tried to point it out. As in if we take a rich person strip them of everything, they will bounce back as long as they are in a first world country with opportunities. The bottom comment explains abit more. They are educated. While poor people in rich countries are poor because they know nothing. Life conditions. 

Well, then, let me clear that one up for you too.

In my country, and under the current circumstances, if you are educated, in many cases you have lesser chances of growing wealth than if you aren't. Why? Because most of the jobs that require higher education are regulated by the government, and the government controls your salary because it's mostly communist. So my higher education flies right out of the window, like many others here.

Let's take a simple example; An already established house painter who does not even have a high-school degree can make more than a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer because he can price his service depending on the customer. Unless you are willing to go illegal, your higher education is a limitation rather than an advantage. If I spent my earlier years learning the house painter profession instead of applying to medical school (we learn it unprofessionally from established painters), I would have probably been able to leave the country or make a fortune here. That's just one example out of many, and I didn't even go near people who own a supermarket or a piece of land, or basically anyone with inherited money or a capitol. A normal uneducated guy who works a simple job in a factory makes something around what a General Practitioner does.

In short, it's the other way around here. So, that shows how there are no rules for wealth. No mindset could ever make you rich, and no mindset could ever make you poor. Unless you're extremely unfortunate, you can always choose not to be poor. But if you are, then it's almost impossible to break out of it. I said almost because I believe I can. I have made a journal entry about this and will post it soon.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

@Gesundheit hmm it seems your reducing everything to social systems. Yes if there are no opportunities and the system is designed to make sure you can never succeed, then mindset plays a limited role, but in first world countries with opportunities, its about mindset. 

12 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

I said almost because I believe I can. I have made a journal entry about this and will post it soon.

Mindset??????? 

[Gesundheit]

17 hours ago, integral said:

@Gesundheit hmm it seems your reducing everything to social systems. Yes if there are no opportunities and the system is designed to make sure you can never succeed, then mindset plays a limited role, but in first world countries with opportunities, its about mindset.

Again, I would have to disagree.

The more money you gather, the less others will. Simply because money is finite, and we all share it. So, obviously, there can't be rich people without poor people. So, basically, wealth inequality is inherent in our social systems. Humans are identical to cancers in this regard. And any argument that doesn't factor this as the main cause of poverty is either selfish or deluded, or both 

Rich people think that they're rich simply because they're smarter than others, or in other words, mindset. I don't care one bit if they want to believe this delusional thought. But it becomes problematic when they start broadcasting it, and then poor people naively buy it. Why? Because when that happens, the rich become the host of the money game and everyone else submits to their rules. This further empowers the rich and further disempowers the poor, which further increases wealth inequality, which eventually creates a pole that has all the money and power, and an opposite pole that doesn't have either, which is exactly how all societies are.

There are many illegal ways to gather money that many rich people use, or have used before but not anymore. In any case, the legal system does care about true equality. It only cares about preserving the social system, because the social system preserves the legal system in turn. There's a loop here that I hope does not need any further clarifications. The legal system turns a blind eye to wealth inequality because it helps it preserve the social system and itself, even though being rich and irresponsible is technically a crime due to what I said above about cancer. Because the rich is not being held responsible for the poor, and many poor people suffer and even die due to diseases and poor conditions, i.e poverty. You see, the rich does not take responsibility for that, so they're basically killing the poor, even though passively.

One might argue that poor people nowadays are still relatively rich compared to earlier societies, but you can probably see how that'd just be a strawman argument and a form of gaslighting that the rich (or deluded) person would use to keep the system intact and in favor of the rich.

[Consept]

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Again, I would have to disagree.

The more money you gather, the less others will. Simply because money is finite, and we all share it. So, obviously, there can't be rich people without poor people. So, basically, wealth inequality is inherent in our social systems. Humans are identical to cancers in this regard. And any argument that doesn't factor this as the main cause of poverty is either selfish or deluded, or both 

Rich people think that they're rich simply because they're smarter than others, or in other words, mindset. I don't care one bit if they want to believe this delusional thought. But it becomes problematic when they start broadcasting it, and then poor people naively buy it. Why? Because when that happens, the rich become the host of the money game and everyone else submits to their rules. This further empowers the rich and further disempowers the poor, which further increases wealth inequality, which eventually creates a pole that has all the money and power, and an opposite pole that doesn't have either, which is exactly how all societies are.

There are many illegal ways to gather money that many rich people use, or have used before but not anymore. In any case, the legal system does care about true equality. It only cares about preserving the social system, because the social system preserves the legal system in turn. There's a loop here that I hope does not need any further clarifications. The legal system turns a blind eye to wealth inequality because it helps it preserve the social system and itself, even though being rich and irresponsible is technically a crime due to what I said above about cancer. Because the rich is not being held responsible for the poor, and many poor people suffer and even die due to diseases and poor conditions, i.e poverty. You see, the rich does not take responsibility for that, so they're basically killing the poor, even though passively.

One might argue that poor people nowadays are still relatively rich compared to earlier societies, but you can probably see how that'd just be a strawman argument and a form of gaslighting that the rich (or deluded) person would use to keep the system intact and in favor of the rich.

Interesting discussion, I get where youre coming from and i think its almost a given that if youre from a third world country the odds are stacked even higher against you to the point of almost impossibility. But I think both points of this discussion can be true, mindset can be a huge factor in escaping poverty if there are some opportunities and also the system can be seemingly impossible to overcome. 

Heres why, if you put someone who is a self made millionaire, strip them of all wealth, contacts etc and put them in an average town, chances are they would be able to build wealth again from scratch. They would at least do better than those around them, this experiment has been done a few times in fact theres a discovery channel show documenting it. Theres also numerous examples of millionaires going completely bankrupt but recovering and building wealth again.  So in this respect mindset is everything. However to get that mindset is very difficult and to get it while growing up poor in a bad neighbourhood with those around you dragging you down and no positive role models, is extremely difficult, in fact you are not even aware that your mindset is not working for you. In this example you are in survival mode or a scarcity mindset, to build wealth you need to be in an abundant mindset, which again is hard to do if you are just trying to survive. (Maslow talks about abundant vs scarcity mindset as basically the difference between success and failure).

I agree that rich people do talk about mindset in an unrealistic way, like why dont poor people just think differently. Of course this is simplistic, that rich person couldve had great parents and a family unit or maybe they didnt but they liked to read and stumbled upon some great knowledge, either way something from the outside changed the way they thought and led to success, for some people this just doesnt happen.   

[Gesundheit]

@Consept I would be careful with the word mindset.

It's important to keep in mind legal vs. illegal wealth. For example, a poor person could steal or murder a rich person and take all his money. Does crime count as mindset? If all odds are placed against the poor from the beginning, then it's not a fair game to begin with. After all who decides what is legal and what isn't? Why isn't being rich and irresponsible a crime? I explained above how the rich is indirectly killing the poor.

The social system is built around undermining the poor and further empowering the rich, and the legal system is derived from it, because that's what it takes to maintain the hierarchy. Otherwise, people will become lazy and society will collapse, and with it the legal system. But see, this doesn't make much difference to the poor, because they're already living miserable lives. It only really matters to the rich who need to maintain their wealth through manipulating everything in their environment to their benefit. If society collapses, the rich and the poor will be in the same position.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

70% of Rich Families Lose Their Wealth by the Second Generation

Why does this happen? How does it happen?

"Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy"

Edited April 2, 2021 by integral

[Consept]

@Gesundheit

I agree with you, the odds are stacked against poor people and it isn't a fair game. However you skipped over my example, as I said if you put someone  in those conditions who is rich and strip away everything they've accumulated, including contacts, I would estimate that they would still end up doing well, if not become rich again if there's enough time. The only thing they would have over a poor person in that situation is the skills they've acquired and the way they think, that is their only advantage. 

So the question is, can someone born in that situation gain those skills and mindsets to help them get out? The answer is they can and some do but it's extremely difficult to stumble upon a teacher that's going to impart what they know onto you or for you to take seriously, books and YouTube videos.

Poverty breeds poverty, you can use the same example for healthy eating, why do most people in poverty have bad diets? it wouldn't be that much more expensive to eat healthy, let's say it was the same price, most poor people still wouldn't do it. So of course this is because this knowledge hasn't been put into them and it's the same with wealth accumulation. 

@integral

This is the other side of it which shows its not even a poverty problem it's a human problem. Most wealthy families probably don't teach the children about how to hold onto wealth, they get complacent and probably think they're so rich they don't need to think about it. When that wealth gets passed down and split up, the heirs have no clue how to invest or how to protect their wealth and so lose it fairly quickly. 'A fool and their many are parted quickly' as the saying goes. 

Theres a big company in Europe, cant remember the name now, but instead of splitting the money with heirs they pick one heir who is basically groomed to run the business and everything goes to them. I assume the others get paid from their shares in the company. But this company has had their wealth for 100s of years using this method, meaning the compounding returns are phenomenal and they are some of the richest people on earth. 

All that to say mindset is very important both in accumulating and then protecting wealth. 

[Gesundheit]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

@Gesundheit

I agree with you, the odds are stacked against poor people and it isn't a fair game. However you skipped over my example, as I said if you put someone  in those conditions who is rich and strip away everything they've accumulated, including contacts, I would estimate that they would still end up doing well, if not become rich again if there's enough time. The only thing they would have over a poor person in that situation is the skills they've acquired and the way they think, that is their only advantage. 

So the question is, can someone born in that situation gain those skills and mindsets to help them get out? The answer is they can and some do but it's extremely difficult to stumble upon a teacher that's going to impart what they know onto you or for you to take seriously, books and YouTube videos.

Well, that's obvious. But those are rare cases, and we are discussing the general trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Focusing on rarities is a strawman argument. Notice that I'm avoiding talking about the middle class here because most of them will remain in the middle class, even though, obviously they have better chances of moving up instead of down. But most of them stay mediocre, regardless. That's how the system is designed.

Poverty is a systemic problem that has little to do with mindset. I have already provided many arguments for this claim.

As well, I would make a distinction between becoming rich and being successful. The two are not identical, even though many people think they are. Success doesn't necessarily guarantee you wealth, nor is wealth a sign of success. That's an illusion that gets implanted in our minds from birth. Really, think about it. What's the relationship between money and success?

Wealth is easy to spot/define in practice, but how do you define success? Is a dedicated worker at MacDonald's successful? After all, he/she is part of the reason why food is being delivered to hungry people everyday. They're consistently providing a service that is very essential to humanity, because it's directly related to survival. But they're frowned upon by most people (maybe even by themselves) because of the illusion that I highlighted above.

For a rich person to remain rich and get richer, it's quite easy. You just gotta not be lazy or stupid and then just move your ass and do anything with your money. That'll work just fine. That's the mindset it takes to become richer and not devolve into the middle class or even poverty. You just gotta have a minimum amount of intelligence in order not to devour the piles of money that you currently have. But if you are poor and struggling to pay the bills, then no amount of mindset is going to help you unless you are extremely smart and/or get lucky somehow. Notice the huge difference. A poor person might have to work in a toxic environment for 12-14 hours a day just to survive, like sweatshops. If you think that mindset is a crucial factor there, well good luck with that. On the other hand, a rich person can easily sit behind their desk for a few hours and things will get done for them. A rich person does not even need to work at all actually. If they're smart, they can use their money to create a lot of passive income. For example, a rich person could buy a number of apartments and rent them and hire someone they trust to collect the rent. So basically, they'd be doing nothing and living like kings.

11 hours ago, integral said:

70% of Rich Families Lose Their Wealth by the Second Generation

Why does this happen? How does it happen?

"Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy"

It's the circle of life, my friend. Hard circumstances create strong people. Easy circumstances create weak people.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Gesundheit