Are those in the top 1% of wealth and success happier than most people?

[Moksha]

@DocWatts Good observations, and all valid from the perspective of what humans think we need. Sadly, it is endogenous to our species that what we think we need rarely matches what we actually need.

Of course there are basic survival needs, beyond which we couldn't exist. But most of what makes us miserable is the misunderstanding of who we are. When we let go of thought, and realize our true nature, it becomes clear that, as Consciousness, we are already infinitely abundant. The reason for our suffering is the egoic insistence on looking for happiness outside of ourselves, when all along the bliss is already here.

 

 

 

 

 

[Forestluv]

21 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Yeah, I agree with all of those points, but which would you rather have? A wealthy or middle-class income? 

Income is only one variable. I have turned down high-paying jobs because they involved working long hours in highly structured, stressful, quasi-unethical environments with a boss looking over my shoulder. No thanks.

I currently have a middle income, yet I have a lot of autonomy and job security. And I get to be creative and pursue many of my curiosities. And I get 3 months off a year. 

[7thLetter]

@Hardkill When we hear the idea of "rich people aren't happy" or "the top 1% of successful people aren't happy," I often only see it as a generalization and a speculative opinion of what's going on with rich people. Because the only true way to understand how these people feel is to interview them or step in their shoes and literally live their life. Nobody knows how another human is feeling on the inside other than the person themselves. Plus it should be obvious that everyone is different and it really depends on the context and the person. It wouldn't make sense for this idea to apply to every single person in the top 1% or any rich/successful person for that matter.

I'd say this generalization comes from the popular saying "money doesn't buy happiness" and maybe the understanding of how spirituality/psychology works. Because when it comes to spirituality we all know that it's not about what's on the outside that makes us happy, its about what's on the inside. But even though we have this knowledge, like I said, the conclusion that successful people aren't happy is only a speculative opinion.

I don't think the result itself of being rich or reaching the top 1% makes people unhappy or depressed, but maybe its what they've done on their journey to get to that position. Maybe they've sold a ton of drugs to get there, slit some throats, stepped over a ton of people, stole, deceived, their way to get there for example, which then results in the unhappiness or depression. Although, I can agree to the idea that acquiring materialistic desires may be somewhat of a disappointment in the end because people just have such high expectations of what its like to be in possession of these certain things.

So to answer the question, it really depends. Of course there's unhappy and happy unsuccessful people, and there's happy and unhappy successful people. Being successful itself doesn't make you happy or unhappy, and being unsuccessful doesn't make you happy or unhappy either. Its all about the individual and their mental health.

[intotheblack]

In the material world, yes... in the spiritual world, no.  
 

More money helps you achieve your dreams easily.  It makes life more of a breeze. You will be less stressed if you don’t have to worry about money.  Financial difficulties is one of the top stress causes, So having no money also affects health...

Rich people can buy the best food, have people cooking for them, have personal trainers etc. 
So all depends what you spend the money on.  The rich people who spend money on strippers and cocaine and own many cars will be less happy than the rich people who spend their money on travelling, a personal chef, a home gym and a sauna. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by intotheblack

[Consept]

5 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

When we hear the idea of "rich people aren't happy" or "the top 1% of successful people aren't happy," I often only see it as a generalization and a speculative opinion of what's going on with rich people

I think the caveat is that being rich wont necessarily make you happier than if you werent rich. If you were unhappy when you were poor and then you become rich youd most likely still be unhappy, the flip of that could work as well in that, if you were happy when you were poor youd be happy when you were rich as well. It is of course possible that in the process of becoming rich you found meaning and purpose and this gave you happiness, you could also get disillusioned in the process as well. 

What i will say from personal experience of having literally no money to having some money is that there can be a certain freedom of not having much to worry about except bills and going to work, when you have money its very easy to get locked into financial traps ie mortgage, a business, protecting your money etc, in theory you actually have more problems the more money you get as the late great Biggie said. Personally I'd choose the challenges of having money as i personally like those challenges and feel that they offer growth and push you to learn and be adaptable, but i can fully understand why people wouldnt want to go down that path. I think maybe a better way to phrase it is making money can give you growth but nothing material can give you happiness. 

[The_Truth_Seeker]

Yes they are happy and you are unhappy ?

[7thLetter]

15 hours ago, Consept said:

I think the caveat is that being rich wont necessarily make you happier than if you werent rich. If you were unhappy when you were poor and then you become rich youd most likely still be unhappy, the flip of that could work as well in that, if you were happy when you were poor youd be happy when you were rich as well. It is of course possible that in the process of becoming rich you found meaning and purpose and this gave you happiness, you could also get disillusioned in the process as well. 

Yes I was sort of saying the same thing in my last paragraph about mental health but didn't explain myself further. It's all about the individual's mental health to begin with. People's attitude on life is determined by their mental health, period. And like I mentioned about spirituality, its not about what's on the outside that makes us happy, its about what's on the inside. Nothing in the material world will bring us true happiness, only temporary happiness.

[Bando]

look at all of us non-rich people speculating how rich people would feel

[Moksha]

New research shows the richer we get, the less happy we become. A study, published this month in the journal Nature Human Behavior, found that once we reach a certain household income -- $105,000 in the United States, $95,000 globally -- more income “tended to be associated with reduced life satisfaction and a lower level of well-being.”

[7thLetter]

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

New research shows the richer we get, the less happy we become. A study, published this month in the journal Nature Human Behavior, found that once we reach a certain household income -- $105,000 in the United States, $95,000 globally -- more income “tended to be associated with reduced life satisfaction and a lower level of well-being.”

First thing that came to mind before clicking on that link, was hmm maybe it is true the richer we get less happy we become because of how the ego works. Lately I've been so fascinated with the topic of ego, why does it want what it wants and how does this whole entire thing work? One of the obvious patterns I've noticed is that the ego often tends to chase materialistic desires or achievements, one after the other. "I want this car, now I want another one, now I'm bored of it so now I'll resell it for a new one, I want this watch, I want another one, this shoe and that shoe," and on and on.

Sometimes we might feel that what we have or get is never enough so we keep chasing. Novelty also plays a huge part in this. It could just be the fact that we want more, but it could also be the fact that we just want what's new or that we're addicted to the feeling of getting and chasing something new. It's the experience or the high of it. A first time for almost anything is always so fun and exciting.

It's funny because what I just mentioned above with the reselling of the cars, is what I've noticed in some of the rich people I follow on Instagram. These guys bought and resold more than 5-10 supercars in less than a year. It always seemed to be a pattern of "I'm bored of this one I'll sell it for another" within' a couple months time. And then this other guy has about 6 cars sitting in his garage, to me I just think...Why? When will it ever become enough or when will we ever settle for just one thing?

So then I clicked on the link, read the article and it mentions, "More money, more wants" and the "Treadmill effect." The more we get, the more we want. They make a good point also in how they mention that the next thing needs to be bigger and better, I think that this can be a gift and a curse. A gift because sometimes it can be a good thing for us to create higher standards for ourselves, but also a curse, because we create higher standards for ourselves. The good thing about it is that I don't think there's anything wrong with having higher standards for ourselves to live the best life and so we push ourselves further to do bigger and better things to acquire more and get the best of the best. But the bad part about this is that, what if we don't push ourselves and acquire what we desire according to these higher standards, or even worse, what if we lose it all? And so I think this is where the unhappiness kicks in. Also, in the process of creating higher and higher standards for ourselves, this is where the never ending cycle of chasing or the "treadmill effect" starts.

ALTHOUGH, while the ego can be super tricky and the desires/temptations are difficult to overcome, I do believe we can control or tame the ego through inner work/spirituality which is why this work is so important.

Edited March 28, 2021 by 7thLetter

[Consept]

@7thLetter

Interesting topics raised, the ego is fascinating. What I've been thinking about recently is status, I think this is a big function of the ego, it basically wants us to be as high ranked amongst other humans as possible. 

When you're a kid in school it's always very important amongst the boys, who's the strongest, who's the fastest, who's the best at sport. As you get older it's who can attract the best girls, then who's got the best job or the most money, we even lead with 'what work do you do?', when we meet people. 

So it's interesting how we constantly place ourselves in this unconscious status ranking. This possibly could be from the tribal times where everyone was competing to be the head of the tribe, only now the tribe is billions of people. Its also possible for companies to co-opt this nature we have to sell products that seemingly enhance our status. 

A lot of it is also the higher status you are the more access to the other sex you get, I think that is ultimately the biggest driver. 

[7thLetter]

@Consept Definitely, this idea of the "treadmill effect" could be applied to pretty much everything that feeds the ego, whatever it is that boosts our self-esteem. New and more materialistic things, higher status, new sex partners getting your "lay count" up (something that apparently matters amongst PUAs or men's social circle in general), new porn, drugs, etc.

Basically a continuous cycle of getting what we want, getting more of what we want, then whatever that is gets old, so we want something new and even better than the last thing, then we want even more of that new thing.

The ego is like a pig, it's always hungry for more and more food, it'll eat non-stop.

[intotheblack]

‘Money won’t make you happy’ is something rich people say, who used their money for selfish gains and became greedy, then had a rude awakening that it didn’t make them a better person or feel more fulfilled. Their money didn’t bring them happiness, it brought material things and short term pleasure.  People confuse happiness with getting pleasure. So of course if you buy whatever the hell you want and keep chasing and buying things to fill the void you will never be in a place of peace...  this is the situation that a lot of rich people go through and realise that having all those things didn’t make them a better person.  This is one side of the coin.

the other side of the coin is using your money wisely.  It’s not the being able to buy whatever you want that will make you happy, but it’s the security having money brings that will make you be able to live a more comfortable life.  Money helps you create a better situation and can drastically change a persons life who has none.  Having a good financial situation is having one of the lower human needs met, when that need is met you can be a little more at peace and focus on other things.  Money should be used as a tool for security.  
having enough money is 1 less thing to worry about. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by intotheblack

[Gesundheit]

Happiness is a state of consciousness. Money is not. So, they're completely unrelated things. You can be the richest person in the world and still feel miserable. And you can be the poorest person in the world and still feel happy. Some people even claim that money is antithetical to happiness, but I disagree with that and stick to my opinion that they're just unrelated.

The bottom-line here is this: If you can't feel happy while being broke, you won't be able to feel happy while being rich. Happiness is all about mastering your inner world. Once you've mastered your inner world, the outer world becomes irrelevant.

But to be completely honest and realistic, that's only true because enlightenment is cheap and learning how to master the inner world does not require money (Ironically, spiritual wisdom is all over the world that it's ignored and even considered worthless). Otherwise, if enlightenment was a secret that only a few humans were allowed to access, then only the rich people will be able to learn it, and in result only they will know how to be happy. Poor people, on the other hand, will probably be even more miserable, unless they're somehow spiritually gifted.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Gesundheit

[PureRogueQ]

Ultimately just matter of how you see, do you see it as journey and beauty, or you see it as boring, nuisance .

 

[Moksha]

12 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

One of the obvious patterns I've noticed is that the ego often tends to chase materialistic desires or achievements, one after the other.

Great comments, and I completely agree. There is nothing wrong with setting goals for ourselves, and succeeding in the material world. The secret is to enjoy each step of the journey, rather than holding our happiness hostage, until the goal is achieved. Happiness will never happen in the future. It is always here, in the Now, already within us. As long as we realize that, money, possessions, and status have no power over us. They can be enjoyed for what they are, without our happiness depending on them.

[7thLetter]

@Moksha I want to add to what I just said earlier, and this is also to add to the entire thread overall. I thought of this the other night and now have the chance to post it. It's sort of a different perspective to what I was saying.

I completely understand what the article is saying, its basically saying the richer we get the unhappier we become due to the fact we may work more, become isolated from others, and want more as we obtain more. But, doesn't this happen at a smaller scale too? Hypothetically speaking if we were living in a third-world country making $10 a day, then we suddenly move to a first world country and make our current wage right now, does that mean we get unhappier? If yes, where does the unhappiness come from in this scenario? Is it in the fact that we became richer jumping from $10/day to $2K to $5K a month for example? Or is it because we now have the money to buy more which leads to more desires? We're not exactly working more because $10/day in a third-world country is 8+ hours of labor. Do we become more isolated? Maybe but it really depends on the context and isolation affects individuals in many different ways, and in this scenario not really because we're still working the same amount of hours and have times for friends and family if they moved with you to the 1st world country. And lastly more money more wants, yes sure but isn't it worse making $10 a day? You can't even eat 3 full meals with that, and you'd be in an even more desperate situation making $10/day.

What is the article suggesting? To stay stuck at our current wage and not work for more to avoid unhappiness? Or does the article act as a way to justify why we don't have what we want, or justifies why we shouldn't work for more?

I'm really just questioning what was said in the article and the idea of being richer makes us more unhappy. I understand it completely but there's more to it than just that, which lead to more questions.

If we scroll up @Bando was saying "look at all of us non-rich people speculating how rich people would feel." Even though I agree we are sort of just speculating here, and I even said it is speculation in an earlier post, but even though some of us may not be rich, we can understand the idea of acquiring materialistic things at a smaller scale. Maybe I personally might have a burning desire to get a specific $5K car or $500 watch and be disappointed and bored once I get it and want an even better one. Its the same exact problem a rich person would have, getting bored after fulfilling their desire for a $500K car or a $50K watch.

When it comes to these materialistic things, there's really no difference between luxurious cars and regular cars. Sure one is more shiny and faster but they both serve the purpose of getting you from A to B. Expensive food vs regular food, one tastes better but they both turn into shit at the end of the day. Watches, Rolex vs a regular watch, one is shinier but both tell the time. Having sex with a 10/10 female vs a 5/10, one is hotter but with both its just the experience of sex at the end of the day and it doesn't change anything doing it with a hotter woman.

So the point is, I don't really see the difference between these sorts of lifestyles, or for example middle-class vs higher-class. One just has nicer things. With this being said, having more money doesn't really seem to be the problem. Maybe its the problem of how they got to a specific point. Middle-class people are generally unhappy because they work dead end 9-5 jobs. Rich people may be unhappy because maybe their schedule working on a business for example, requires more hours than a 9-5 so I guess that brings us back to the idea of "working more" as said in the article. Or like I said in another post, maybe the rich people had to step on other people, sell drugs, become the devil and sell their soul basically to obtain their wealth, which then leads to the unhappiness.

Its starting to seem that the problem is deeper than just "becoming richer." The idea of working more is a good point though but people who work minimum wage work quite hard too, they still work 8 hours compared to 9-5 workers who also work 8 hours but make a higher wage.

While I did agree to the fact and say getting more leads to wanting more in my earlier post, I would say this happens at every level. It doesn't matter how much we're making because the ego always wants more. Whether we're the $10/day 3rd world country worker or the 1st world country $10/hour minimum wage worker, we'll always want more. In fact, the person making $10/day is in an even more desperate situation and wants even more. With this being said, this goes against the idea of "more money more wants." The ego will always want more so having more money isn't necessarily the problem. Although, from a spiritual perspective we might say that leaving the desires alone, letting it go and doing nothing about it will cause the desires to go away.

My thoughts may have gotten all over the place but there's a lot of questions here. I agree with what the article is saying, but at the same time I don't. The thing is, the article covers what may be happening on the surface level, but it seems there may be some deeper issues that lead to someone's unhappiness when it comes to obtaining more. And I think the answer is that it just depends on the person and their mental state. I guess its also about how they mentally deal with these specific issues. Because I don't think this information applies to everyone and affects everyone the same exact way.

My mind is currently scattered now with this topic, the article has got me so messed up lol.

[universe]

No they are not but somehow society manages to worship them in a strange kinky way.

[Moksha]

12 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

What is the article suggesting? To stay stuck at our current wage and not work for more to avoid unhappiness? Or does the article act as a way to justify why we don't have what we want, or justifies why we shouldn't work for more?

Like begets like. Any addiction, like chasing after money, only becomes stronger the more you engage in it. Addictions always lead to unhappiness in the end, because they lure you away from yourself. There's nothing wrong with making money, just don't let it define your happiness. Realize that you do not have to suffer, and enjoy every step of the journey. Goals are great, as long as they don't distract you from the infinite greatness that you already are.

[soularlight]

On 3/24/2021 at 9:38 PM, Moksha said:

They don't have to struggle with the lower tiers of Maslow's hierarchy. However, because of this laisse faire reality, they also are less likely to grow. Jesus said it is harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to realize heaven.

Happiness has nothing to do with wealth, and everything to do with letting go of the attachment to wealth.

Rich man could also imply someone who is rich in concepts and ideas about Reality. Someone who is filled with intellectual "understandings".