Stage Orange Critique of Green+ (Leo is not a Cult Leader)

[Gidiot]

Popular science channel on YT critiquing mysticism and targeting Leo especially saying he is cult leader, I have seen this critique in other places and I’d just like to make this post for anyone that needs to read it but I don’t believe leo is a cult leader after studying  cult leaders and watching the cult psychology video. He can say radical and extreme things but by no means is he leeching off people to boost his ego or taking them from their families and loved ones or detaching them from reality to get personal or financial gain, you could argue from an outside perspective that the information is manipulative but then everyone is a cult leader I don’t think it’s manipulative it’s just radical and some people don’t want to hear it.
 

Most of this video is just your common stage orange response about how you need a PhD or multiple bachelors degrees before you can talk about quantum mechanics maybe to understand it but not to talk about experiments. and how spiritual people shouldn’t talk about it and how energy simply is a scientific definition of it and nothing more.

maybe better to go on the stage orange examples three but I kind of got a hair across my ass at the cult accusation cause that’s a big one IMO and not true.

 

ego out haha

[Hello from Russia]

Leo looks completely nuts with such cherrypicked cuts

[Bando]

Man the ability to go "Meta" is such an eye opening perspective to have, a few years ago I would have thought the stuff Leo says is complete woo woo jargon but it actually makes sense when you study spiral dynamics, Cook Greuter Ego Development theory and other models detailing how the Ego-Mind works.

I always forget that the stuff we learn here is 50-100 years in the future and how most of society is still stuck in stage orange thinking, no wonder progress is so slow, the dude has over 1million followers and is leading them in the "wrong direction" when it comes to stuff like this.

There are much deeper levels of understanding he's missing, which he will never be able to uncover because he has built his career being the "debunk guy" Crazy how the ego-mind works wouldn't even bother responding to this video if I were Leo

[Opo]

Waste of time. 

[ilja]

@Hello from Russia nice rhyme\

 

This guy shouldn't be talking about mysticism when he has never genuinely approached mysticism and done the psychedelics or meditations etc.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ilja

[JohnD]

Not all people that appear to lead cults are cult leaders. Often if one has a certain disposition others will form around them in a cult-like structure. It takes attentive, meticulous reality-building to create a community that doesn't occasionally reflect cult-like behaviors.

[Hello from Russia]

9 minutes ago, ilja said:

@Hello from Russia nice rhyme\

Didn't even notice 

This guy made so many epistemological blunders in his analysis, pretty good example of how people get stuck in a scientific materialism paradigm due to poor sensemaking

Edited March 24, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[ilja]

8 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

This guy made so many epistemological blunders in his analysis, pretty good example of how people get stuck in a scientific materialism paradigm due to poor sensemaking

I can't watch it without getting a sick stomach. I don't understand what his problem is, if he doesn't like non duality he doesn't need to pursue it, just do his repetetive same old "science". He is like a child that got butthurt because it realized it needs to share the candies with other class mates.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ilja

[JosephKnecht]

If you believe anything that Leo says, you are enrolling yourself in a cult. 

Don't believe anything he says. Verify it for yourself. 

If you can't verify it, it is not your Truth. 

 

[ilja]

@JosephKnecht

verfication is just a feeling and different people have different standards for envoking it.

[Hello from Russia]

53 minutes ago, ilja said:

I can't watch it without getting a sick stomach. I don't understand what his problem is, if he doesn't like non duality he doesn't need to pursue it, just do his repetetive same old "science". He is like a child that got butthurt because it realized it needs to share the candies with other class mates.

He doesn't really have much butthurt. He just has a big survival agenda for creating these videos. It helps him get views and further establish him as an authority for his viewers. Very profound example of how the environment influences your worldview and actions and how you stop trying to be objective when you have stakes on the line and have people to cater to

Edited March 24, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[ilja]

1 minute ago, Hello from Russia said:

He doesn't really have much butthurt. He just has a big survival agenda for creating these videos, It helps him get views and further establish him as an authority for his viewers. Very profound example of how the environment influences your worldview and actions and how you stop trying to be objective when you have stakes on the line and have people to cater to

Its funny. he is doing the very same thing sociopaths do, who he sets leo to be similar to.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ilja

[soos_mite_ah]

In addition to this being a critique on green, I also think this perception is a stage orange critique of turquoise. Things like "you are god" or "I'm god" sound delusional when you're at orange or you don't have any background knowledge of nonduality. It reminds orange people of blue, how faith based it was, and how it had this notion of divine rights/ being a prophet. 

[fridjonk]

1 hour ago, ilja said:

I can't watch it without getting a sick stomach. I don't understand what his problem is

Contemplate this and you might have an insight.  

[ilja]

@fridjonk already done

[Boethius]

I haven't delved into Leo's videos on quantum consciousness, but just based on my own journey I have two thoughts on the topic of "quantum mysticism":

• I'm not sure that a non-dual mystic has much to teach a physicist about quantum mechanics. It's entirely possibly the mystic does have something to teach the physicist, but I would want to see an actual conversation between the two before making such an assertion.
• On the other hand, I do believe that the science of quantum mechanics is capable of shedding quite a bit of light on the experience of non-dual states of consciousness and altered states of perception. I imagine the creator of the video shared above would look at the reporting of such experiences as either a bunch of BS or as a "malfunctioning" brain, but neither explanation truly accounts for those experiences in anything like a scientific manner.

[Gidiot]

@Boethius good observations and I guess this is more of a critique of turquoise in the video. 
 

things that come to my mind is yea all those examples are just examples of radical truths that he asks you to verify for yourself, there’s nothing vulnerable about Leo’s audience and if there is it’s not because he needs to fill the hole it’s mostly truth seekers and those interested about spirituality. 
 

it just seems to me that I’ve never thought that Leo was saying he is the answer only follow him like many masters say or even the rare cult leader says, on the contrary I’ve always got the impression that it was your own direct experience that Leo teaches is king and you should verify everything for yourself, I know there a good amount of youtubers that criticize him exist so we can’t answer every one I just found this one particular user a more of a materialist.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, ilja said:

This guy shouldn't be talking about mysticism when he has never genuinely approached mysticism and done the psychedelics or meditations etc.

Yeah. Using his logic, if we were to trust him as an authority, where is his PhD in mysticism? ?

[DocWatts]

If you find yourself basically agreeing with almost every point that Leo makes in his videos, that more or less means you're not engaging with the ideas being presented in a Critical and Engaged way.

If there's a general through line for most of the content from Leo's channel is that it's meant to challenge your perspective and worldview in rather fundamental ways. You probably shouldn't be agreeing with everything that's presented to you.

It's that's not the case, you might want to take a break from actualized.org content, read a few books, get some other Perspectives. If one person is your fulcrum for your Perspective on Reality, that's a precarious position to be in, even if that individual is highly Knowledgeable and has benign intentions.

[Boethius]

I engaged very extensively in the youtube comments to that video. In the end, I'm not sure it was worth it or what motivated me to engage (I guess a general annoyance with the casual use of the word "mysticism" as a slur). But it did help me get a better sense of how to draw different lines on a variety of different topics so it might be of interest to take a look at the back and forth.

One thing I really didn't have a sense of before engaging is the shape that Orange's ego tends to take in discussions around spiritual topics: it's like Orange wants to be convinced about the reality of spiritual topics but only on its own terms. So show Orange the relevant scientific studies, was a common request! Or Orange is willing to entertain things like "infinite consciousness" or "God" so long as you can point to some specific phenomena (that is an object) in the world that corresponds to "infinite consciousness" or "God". Well, the request to do so is clearly self-refuting: if infinite consciousness could be analyzed as something occurring outside of oneself then it wouldn't be something for a person to experience, and if God could be turned into an object of scientific analysis then there would be no possibility of worshipping God. So yeah, Orange tends towards arrogance in its own unique way and there isn't the possibility of discussing the world with Orange except in ways that are very objectifying and instrumental (it makes one wonder whether Orange is even capable of talking authentically about Love, quite honestly!)