China took over Hong Kong. They say Taiwan is next. Why?

[EnRoute]

Hello.

Since China took over Hong Kong, the shining, prosperous Asian hub is no longer democratic. You no longer have freedom there and many of the Hong Kong people are moving to the United States in large numbers, including politicians.

China announced long ago that Taiwan is going to be next. They're preparing for an invasion.

These two Asian democratic countries don't need China, as they're doing extremely well when it comes to economics and exporting goods. They're prosperous countries.

Why is China taking over these countries? Why doesn't China just leave them alone and govern their own affairs?

It's mindboggling to see two democratic countries fall under China's authoritative spell, meaning that these two countries will no longer be democratic.

For me personally, just the thought of an authoritarian government that punishes criticism makes me depressed. If I were to live there without being allowed to criticize the government, I would become depressed.

I've seen a documentary about China becoming the next superpower. They will have a much stronger economy than the United States and a much powerful military. They will decide the new world order.

I wouldn't want to live in a world where a communist country without human rights has the power to set the world order.

We need to do something about this but I'm afraid it's too late.

[ted73104]

Unfortunately China needs them. There are some provinces within China that wants to defect from China. So if Taiwan is allowed to declare independence, many more provinces and minority groups will see this as a possible way forward. There are other reasons China needs Taiwan, as the sea surrounding Taiwan controls a very strategic trade route in Asia which Korea and Japan heavily relies on. Taiwan is also mountainous and contains several natural sea ports, which is an excellent place to load up on military forces to counter forces from the Pacific (namely the US), sort of like a huge aircraft carrier.

China doesn't give a shit about the people of Taiwan, they will burn Taiwan down to ashes if they have to control the island. China is currently sort of using the hundred years of humiliation where Taiwan was stolen by the Japanese before being taken over by the previous very corrupt government of China, which the communists eventually overthrew, to convince their people that regaining Taiwan is one of the keys to end the humiliation the Chinese suffered between the 19th and early 20th Century. And unfortunately this narrative is working quite well within China.

[snowyowl]

The histories of Hong Kong and Taiwan are rather different. Hong Kong was part of China since ancient times, but was taken over by the British Empire, resulting in Britain leasing it from China in 1898 for 100 years. So when the lease expired in 1997 China was simply recovering their own territory legally (if you accept the CCP as the legal rulers of China since they took over the mainland during that 100 years). They gave some promises of democracy at the time, which they're obviously in the process of gradually rescinding and integrating HK into the rest of communist China. 

Taiwan was conquered by China rather more recently in the 17th century, by Imperial China (following a period of Dutch imperialism), and is now the remaining outpost of pre-communist Republic of China after it lost the mainland in the civil war, at the end of WW2. So effectively, the Chinese communists are wanting to reopen the civil war and expand their territory. 

Then there's Tibet, which has another history, but is still a victim of the CCP's empire building. 

 My conclusion: China is strategically planning for the long-term, as it is a single party without a change in administration to disrupt its plans. It has a long memory. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by snowyowl

[Milos Uzelac]

@ted73104

@snowyowl

Yeah ghosts from the past, as the British documentary film maker and writer Adam Curtis put it, seem to be day by day across the world slowly but surely returning in full force. 

Thanks to the both of you for the brief history summaries. 

@EnRoute

and Hong Kong never had a democratic political system when it was run by the British to begin with. So the CCP uses that history as way pointing to the hypocrisy of the advocacy for democracy in Hong Kong by Western powers who never ran it as such in the first place until the end of it's lease by the British and gained political autonomy from Mainland China. 

It is state propaganda of course but it works for the government for mobilizing their people for their aims and plans for those two countries in the near future. 

What can you do about it? For a start someone finding a way for American and other European and other multinational corporations and companies to boycott and move their offshore production and investments away from the Chinese massive capital and labour markets. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Milos Uzelac

[roopepa]

 

12 hours ago, EnRoute said:

Why is China taking over these countries? Why doesn't China just leave them alone and govern their own affairs?

I've seen a documentary about China becoming the next superpower. They will have a much stronger economy than the United States and a much powerful military. They will decide the new world order.

Taking over Hong Kong & Taiwan is seen as means to achieve the vision of China as the new greatest superpower I believe. This is unification.

China as the next great superpower scares me too. I hope they will do a great job with it.

[Fadl]

I´m against their regime but to be honest I think Taiwan belongs to China if i'm not mistaken.

[Danioover9000]

@EnRoute

17 hours ago, EnRoute said:

Hello.

Since China took over Hong Kong, the shining, prosperous Asian hub is no longer democratic. You no longer have freedom there and many of the Hong Kong people are moving to the United States in large numbers, including politicians.

China announced long ago that Taiwan is going to be next. They're preparing for an invasion.

These two Asian democratic countries don't need China, as they're doing extremely well when it comes to economics and exporting goods. They're prosperous countries.

Why is China taking over these countries? Why doesn't China just leave them alone and govern their own affairs?

It's mindboggling to see two democratic countries fall under China's authoritative spell, meaning that these two countries will no longer be democratic.

For me personally, just the thought of an authoritarian government that punishes criticism makes me depressed. If I were to live there without being allowed to criticize the government, I would become depressed.

I've seen a documentary about China becoming the next superpower. They will have a much stronger economy than the United States and a much powerful military. They will decide the new world order.

I wouldn't want to live in a world where a communist country without human rights has the power to set the world order.

We need to do something about this but I'm afraid it's too late.

   If I'm not mistaken, they also had some skirmishes with Indian soldiers along the border at the mountains.

   China is just pure evil at this point, there's not a lot of good things to say about it, maybe the takeaway, but even that's bad.

[EnRoute]

6 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   China is just pure evil at this point, there's not a lot of good things to say about it, maybe the takeaway, but even that's bad.

You killed it! I see many people in our society attacking Western civilization, freedom, and Capitalism without even thinking that it's the only civilization that abolished slavery and gave people human rights. The progress we made is unbelievable.

It is really concerning to see people not be alarmed by the rise of China.

Modern people don't know the horrors of real authoritarianism, nazism, and communism.

If we're not doing something about the rise of China, we're doomed to a world where freedom will no longer exist.

[Milos Uzelac]

30 minutes ago, EnRoute said:

 

Modern people don't know the horrors of real authoritarianism, nazism, and communism.

 

I basically now live in an authoritarian state with the head of state and ruling party modeling its way of governance and ideology of nationalism on Putin's Edina Rossia Party and the CCP. They've basically created an overarching clientelist political system where people who join the party have more chances of getting employed and helping their friends and relatives also getting more employment opportunities if they become party members. It has a larger number of members in the country than the Yugoslav Communist Party that governed a one-party system in Yugoslavia ever had, even though it almost had triple the population compared to Serbia.

The problem is people seem to have rejected the multi-party system because it was unstable and the power often wasn't centralized enough for undertaking and planning large infrastructure overhauls and construction projects (mostly new residential areas for the rising middle class in the capital city and roads and highway's for the purpose of traffic and trade) across the nation which have since the party's ascent to power now gone underway. People have accepted that elections are by almost all standards no longer free and fair and manipulated by local authorities for the ruling party president and his party to always surely win every parliamentary and presidential election cycle (a similar thing happens in Russia with Putin's ruling party) even if they are boycotted by the opposition as a farce, but the people don't care since their living standards have slightly gone up since the party's rule, there is employment in these construction projects and most of them accept and support this form of totalitarian nationalism as a way of reinforcing their ethnic and religious identity and being proud in it's constructed national history and past because they want to see the return of the glorious ''good ol' days'' when the nation was dominant in the region.

I can only imagine that a large part of also Chinese and Russian people, of all generations, also feel exactly the same way about this topic and subject.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Milos Uzelac

[Danioover9000]

   Found a great video analyzing escalating tensions between China and Taiwan:

 

What do you guys think about this video?

[Danioover9000]

   Some differences between Taiwan people and mainland chinese people:

 

[Milos Uzelac]

11 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Found a great video analyzing escalating tensions between China and Taiwan:

 

What do you guys think about this video?

I think the interests of this German media agency aligns with the interests of the country that you live in and you're country's current political interests alligns with your own class interests and also you're country's current political interests alligns with the interest of the biggest arms supplier to Taiwan the US. And all this interests aligning is what gives this geopolitical analysis point of view legitimacy and views from people who see it as being in their own interests. 

I am using the term interest in it's economic sense as pathway and claim for certain existential goods. 

Though I admit this interaction and correlation between interests is probably much more complex than what I listed above. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Milos Uzelac

[Onecirrus]

@Husseinisdoingfine Found the fucking tankie! China is an authoritarian capitalistic dystopian hell scape. Do you think a fascist blue world leader is preferable to orange/green America? At least America isn't conducting a genocide on members of its own populace.

[Blackhawk]

What annoys me is that it's west which makes China great, by buying stuff from China. West is digging its own grave by throwing their money to China, it's mind-boggling.

Stop buying chinese products and services, ffs.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Onecirrus]

@Blackhawk If they were made here, they'd be completely unaffordable to the average person. Manufacturing is never coming back here.

[Danioover9000]

@Husseinisdoingfine

2 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Mmmm... I’ll personally route for any world power that can outcompete the United States and then eventually overtake it.

The United States has abused its position as “world leader” for far too long and personally that fact that finally another world power stands a chance to outcompete and then dominate the U.S. is just terrific.

   And you'd be just fine being ruled by China? They have a certain way of dealing with minorities that should make your skin crawl, being ruled by such a system. I can't even bring myself to troll about China, because it's that disgusting to make light of this situation.

[Harikrishnan]

5 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Mmmm... I’ll personally route for any world power that can outcompete the United States and then eventually overtake it.

The United States has abused its position as “world leader” for far too long and personally that fact that finally another world power stands a chance to outcompete and then dominate the U.S. is just terrific.

wait till china comes and knock your door ?

China should have been stopped in early 1950's when they took over tibet. India didnt raise any objection then and now India is facing problems. china will in future will take over pakistan to.

[snowyowl]

@Husseinisdoingfine I think I see where you're coming from, but just replacing one militaristic nation on the no 1 spot with another, isn't going to make the world a better place. Remember that during the cold war the Soviets and the US kept each other in check, at least in certain areas like Europe and the Middle East. Which was the best place to live then? 

Not that I have I good alternative either, until we all decide to club together and beef up the United Nations with a military and economic force which can stand up to the superpowers. But that's not in the superpowers' interests to let that happen. 

[Woke456]

On 3/25/2021 at 5:07 AM, Fadl said:

I´m against their regime but to be honest I think Taiwan belongs to China if i'm not mistaken.

You shouldn't hold guns to people's heads to make them hang out with you.

[snowyowl]

In one perspective, Taiwan already think they are China, and the CCP are the usurpers illegally occupying their territory on the mainland. From Wikipedia page for Taiwan: 

"Taiwan (traditional Chinese: officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia ..."

The Republicans took over from the Emperors in 1912 in a revolution, then the Communists took over in a civil war. China's never been democratic and as far as I know, Taiwan has slowly transitioned to democracy. But they're held back from declaring independence by the threat of Chinese invasion.