How to deal with racist friends?

[Preety_India]

Is it okay for a friend to say racist jokes and make it sound cool. Should I say that I'm offended and make it clear to them that it's not okay? 

Here's the deal. I've seen many people who say racist things to their friends and then react by saying that it's cool because they are friends and don't mind and that that's how real friends should be. According to them, real friends don't mind racist comments or jokes or racist conversations. 

To me this appears as subtle gaslighting, an effort to normalize racism and make it sound easy to be a racist just to create this comfort zone for the racist friend to not have to deal with the discomfort of thinking what should be said or not said. It gives them a leverage and a pass so they can be cool saying those jokes at the expense of the other person's self esteem and expecting that the person should accommodate for their racist behavior by not getting offended but swallowing their pride and put up with it. 

I don't see it as healthy friendships where racist friends are accomodated for in the name of friendship. To me its highly disrespectful. 

I had racist friends in the past. 

And at some point I had to let them go because I couldn't put up with the racist jokes. 

What are your thoughts on such dynamics? 

Also should I tolerate the racist comments or jokes in order to keep such friends even if I feel offended by the jokes? 

Or. 

Should I put my foot down and let the racist friend know that I won't be putting up with it and that either they change or I need to let them go? 

 

 

[Karmadhi]

As long as no one feels hurt or offended is all good. Same for mom jokes for example that people make in high school.

No need to be so oversensitive as people have become these days, what matters is the intention/context not the words themselves. 

Of course, i am not saying to overdo it. Anything gets corrupted and becomes toxic once overdone.

 

[Opo]

Yea it's gaslighting and if it bothers you you should say it. 

But what I'm wondering is why does it bother you?

Because I grew up around those kinds of people but that stuff never bothered me so I'm interested in your perspective. 

[flowboy]

You have to discern whether they really believe those things, or whether they are just jokes.

Real racists don't make that many racist jokes, they're more like serious statements and "telling how it really is". That's a red flag.

Have you asked them what they really believe about whatever race this was about?

[Preety_India]

@flowboy  that's really hard to do.. 

Maybe I'll try next time. 

But I still find it hard to bring it up because if I show that I'm offended by their jokes, maybe they will call me over sensitive and perhaps leave me? The thought of losing them holds me back from arguing with them over this. 

It's like I don't want to ruin the friendship I have with them but at the same time its nice if they are not being racist and cut it out, racist or not, those jokes aren't really making me laugh, rather make me nervous 

I'd say, tricky situation. 

The friends aren't bad people though, it's just that the racist part sucks 

 

[Rilles]

More details needed, what kind of jokes? If you feel really uncomfortable you should probably let go of those friends.

Were all racist on a spectrum, some are obviously racist like Neo-Nazis, and some just make jokes with their friends, I have been guilty of that, I never put anyone down as being unintelligent but I do make jokes about not visiting certain areas of my city because its more... dangerous... Im very aware of it though and I rarely do it anymore. 

[kray]

@Preety_India Honestly, be straight forward from the start. If your friend says or does something that you find offensive, tell them then and there. If they still say offensive things, then you should dump this friend. 

[bejapuskas]

Just have a conversation with them. I don't think making racist jokes is always a sign of being racist. Sure, it can offend somebody, but if you make these jokes when nobody else hears them and it is clear that the other person is not racist? I agree with what flowboy said. But then again, just talk to them about it, try to understand where they are coming from. For example they might be from a racially homogenous background wher racist jokes almost never offend anyone and everybody makes them, they are normalized. (although the people who make them might not be racist) That friend might not know from experience that this can be a problem, do you understand what I am trying to communicate?

I think racism, homophobia and any sort of discrimination comes from lack of exposure. What my girlfriend did with her mum was that she told her to go hitchhiking with a lesbian (her mum used to be homophobic) and she actually did it and changed her mind.

[Roy]

On 3/22/2021 at 3:53 PM, Preety_India said:

To me this appears as subtle gaslighting

This isn't what gaslighting means. I wish people would stop throwing around this term so liberally.

Anyways what they are doing is appealing to a toxic social norm > that you shouldn't be confrontational in a casual setting because it spoils the mood and puts people on the spot.

There is an expectation that "calling someone out" should only happen when they are being brazenly and deliberately offensive and everyone can tell they have a malicious intent to offend or do harm.

Of course regardless of intention some jokes have the potential to be funny to some but easily cross that line for others.

[Boethius]

I wouldn't tell a rape joke to a woman, a dead baby joke to a person who experienced miscarriage, a 9/11 joke to a person who lost a loved one in the collapse of the towers, an AIDS joke to a gay man, or a racist joke to a person of color. I can't imagine any of those people would appreciate hearing such a joke from me.

Besides that, this just feels like a no-brainer to me: racist jokes perpetuate racism.

I have a POC friend who was hearing racial jokes from some "friends" of his and he gently let them know he found their "jokes" to be offensive. They responded with "we're just joking, don't take it so seriously". Which is really just a way of saying "too bad, we don't care how you feel about our jokes". He chose to disengage from those people and reports being happier for it.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Boethius

[Preety_India]

10 hours ago, Roy said:

This isn't what gaslighting means. I wish people would stop throwing around this term so liberally.

So this is the standard definition of gaslighting. 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves.

So yes when someone makes me question my perception of reality in a way that disqualifies my natural feelings and observations, it is called GASLIGHTING. 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Preety_India

[Danioover9000]

@Boethius

44 minutes ago, Boethius said:

I wouldn't tell a rape joke to a woman, a dead baby joke to a person who experienced miscarriage, a 9/11 joke to a person who lost a loved one in the collapse of the towers, an AIDS joke to a gay man, or a racist joke to a person of color. I can't imagine any of those people would appreciate hearing such a joke from me.

Besides that, this just feels like a no-brainer to me: racist jokes perpetuate racism.

I have a POC friend who was hearing racial jokes from some "friends" of his and he gently let them know he found their "jokes" to be offensive. They responded with "we're just joking, don't take it so seriously". Which is really just a way of saying "too bad, we don't care how you feel about our jokes". He chose to disengage from those people and reports being happier for it.

   This is the purpose of joking, to see if your level of consciousness is acceptable to be around with, or not. Jokes, if done right, can both add to a relationship, or test if this relationship is worth pursuing.

[soos_mite_ah]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:31 AM, flowboy said:

You have to discern whether they really believe those things, or whether they are just jokes.

Real racists don't make that many racist jokes, they're more like serious statements and "telling how it really is". That's a red flag.

Have you asked them what they really believe about whatever race this was about?

Even if they are "just jokes" it's worth questioning why that person would find such a thing funny. You don't have to be blatantly racist to be racist. 

44 minutes ago, Boethius said:

Besides that, this just feels like a no-brainer to me: racist jokes perpetuate racism.

I have a POC friend who was hearing racial jokes from some "friends" of his and he gently let them know he found their "jokes" to be offensive. They responded with "we're just joking, don't take it so seriously". Which is really just a way of saying "too bad, we don't care how you feel about our jokes". He chose to disengage from those people and reports being happier for it.

Was just about to say this. Situations like that are uncomfortable. You're not actually funny if you have to be prejudiced in order to be funny. 

 

Personally, when I see a friend making racist jokes or being racist, I let them know that I'm not ok with it and try to open a conversation. If the person gets defensive or they continue the behavior, they are disrespecting my boundaries so then I just move on or keep contact in the bare minimum. I don't want to validate this behavior by continuing to stick around. 

[Roy]

3 hours ago, Preety_India said:

So this is the standard definition of gaslighting. 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves.

So yes when someone makes me question my perception of reality in a way that disqualifies my natural feelings and observations, it is called GASLIGHTING. 

You are still misinterpreting it. Gaslighting is malicious and subtle, often with planned intent. There is nothing subtle or slight of hand about what this person was probably saying to you, they are probably well aware that racist jokes aren't even that funny but are being deliberately callous about it because it might be their sense of humor (shock/dark) they don't want to be put on the spot in front of everyone.

It's not gaslighting if the feelings and trust you have are so socially widespread that > racism is bad and racist jokes are not ok. It would be like if someone was trying to gaslight you that the moon doesn't exist LOL. This is why we don't call Flat earthers or Moon Landing deniers "gaslighters".  They are just plain assholes who don't want to be held accountable for their behavior.

Gaslighting is not > Every time someone says something to me I don't like, as so many people think it is. Words start to lose their meaning if they are used too much and improperly.

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Roy

[Boethius]

57 minutes ago, Roy said:

You are still misinterpreting it. Gaslighting is malicious and subtle, often with planned intent. There is nothing subtle or slight of hand about what this person was probably saying to you, they are probably well aware that racist jokes aren't even that funny but are being deliberately callous about it because it might be their sense of humor (shock/dark) they don't want to be put on the spot in front of everyone.

It's not gaslighting if the feelings and trust you have are so socially widespread that > racism is bad and racist jokes are not ok. It would be like if someone was trying to gaslight you that the moon doesn't exist LOL. This is why we don't call Flat earthers or Moon Landing deniers "gaslighters".  They are just plain assholes who don't want to be held accountable for their behavior.

Gaslighting is not > Every time someone says something to me I don't like, as so many people think it is. Words start to lose their meaning if they are used too much and improperly.

 

The meanings of these words is shifting as our society engages with the ideas of Social Justice and as we start to center the voices of the marginalized. Here, for example, is a recent article by The Guardian on racist jokes as a form of gaslighting:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2020/mar/12/its-time-to-put-an-end-to-the-gaslighting-that-occurs-every-day-in-australia