No idea what is going on

[Eternity]

This does it for me:

 

[Dryas]

Might help

 

[integral]

I tried an aggressive strategy in the other thread to try snap him out of it, didnt work. 

In MBTI terms a one track mind problem comes up alot with self over tribe imbalance, single deciders.

They have one lens to reason with (Ti), no value is given to what the tribe communicates and truth is top priority. (INTP)

If the "wrong" turn is taken, they go down a path, reach a dead end and nothing can get them out of it.

Double deciders can choose between more then one method of sense making, so they never get stuck. 

People that value the tribe, can value the sense making of others as much as their own, so they never get stuck. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by integral

[At awe]

@integral Did you just put all Intp’s in one pot?

[integral]

@At awe No this is one slice. A view on how some unhealthy INTPs can get stuck. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by integral

[Aaron p]

On 20/03/2021 at 6:37 PM, Blackhawk said:

Atheists, materialists, religious, spiritual, and psychonautic people (and whatever else groups of people there are) all think they are on the side which knows the truth.

I think maybe they all are ignorant.

Maybe I am too.

I feel outside because I don't believe in anything specific, and I don't know anything.

How am I supposed to know what is true. I really don't know anything ?

Unfortunately this also means that I wont believe in any replies in this thread either, because I don't know whether what someone says is true or not. Because of that I haven't put a question mark in this post. I don't feel excited about what people will say, since their words don't mean anything to me. So I'm not sure why I even started this thread. Sorry I don't mean to be disrespectful.

In my experience, the ability to ask sweeping questions without necessarily arriving at any answers is an excellent ability to have. Your mind will want to arrive at an answer as soon as you ask your question. Like sweeping a dirty room, as long as your making small sweeping movements in the right direction consistently, you'll eventually clean out the room (arrive at your answer). Doing things this way takes longer but it's more authentic and comprehensive. And then when you have these different groups of people; atheists, materialists, religious, spiritual, and psychonauts...and you wonder which school is correct, you might be the one to realise that they are all wrong, AND they are all right. Truth doesent usually fit easily into any manmade category of philosophy, so instead of starting with a school of philosophy and working towards truth, start with truth and hold no dogma whatsoever. Or at least don't believe your dogma. 

And if your confused..just bring yourself back to the basics. What are you trying to find with this work. What does your intuition say. What is reality. What is god. What is the difference between hallucination and reality? 

[Blackhawk]

14 hours ago, integral said:

@At awe No this is one slice. A view on how some unhealthy INTPs can get stuck. 

I'm not a INTP.

I have done the test before, I don't remember what I got, but I remember it wasn't INTP.

According to experts those personality tests are worthless. And they don't have any support in science.

[integral]

Does truth come from science? Youve made it clear that everything is unknowable from your perspective. How does this work?  

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

According to experts those personality tests are worthless. And they don't have any support in science.

MBTI maybe. Big 5 is pretty solid quantitatively speaking.

There are many things science can't help you with within your own life. MBTI has helped many.

[Blackhawk]

2 hours ago, integral said:

Does truth come from science? Youve made it clear that everything is unknowable from your perspective. How does this work?  

No but science is our best attempt at knowing the truth.

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

MBTI maybe. Big 5 is pretty solid quantitatively speaking.

There are many things science can't help you with within your own life. MBTI has helped many.

People believe in all kind of bullshit which makes their lives better. Even if something makes your life better it doesn't mean that it's true.

Even the belief that earth is flat has made lives better. Because you find a community which you like to be in, you get friends, you get a hobby, etc.

Even before I read experts criticize MBTI and other tests I instinctively "knew" that they are bullshit. I never liked those things.

I can see the psychological reason why people love that kind of horse shit. Spiral dynamics is another example.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Even the belief that earth is flat has made lives better. Because you find a community which you like to be in, you get friends, you get a hobby, etc.

I'm in this case using a very strict definition of science, but nevertheless, I would be careful not to compare something like MBTI with something like flat earth. You're losing a ton of nuance there. For a start, one is based on the genius of Carl Jung and the other is based on epistemic blindness.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Blackhawk]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm in this case using a very strict definition of science, but nevertheless, I would be careful not to compare something like MBTI with something like flat earth. You're losing a ton of nuance there. For a start, one is based on the genius of Carl Jung and the other is based on epistemic blindness.

MBTI was developed by people who had no education in psychology. And MBTI is based on Jungs theory that a personality can be divided in 16 different personality types. That theory has now been proved false.

All serious scientists dismiss it as garbage.

 

(These are unfortunately in swedish. Maybe there's a swede reading this post. If you create a free account you should be able to read the articles.)

https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/maria-gunther-lottdragning-billigare-an-ovetenskapliga-personlighetstest/

https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/myndigheter-koper-oseriosa-personlighetstest-for-miljoner/

[Carl-Richard]

34 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

That theory has now been proved false.

In what way has it been "proved false"?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Blackhawk]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That is not how it works.

It's exactly how it works. Wrong theories gets thrown out and gets replaced with better theories.

Like the theory that earth is the center of the universe got replaced by something better.

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

It's exactly how it works. Wrong theories gets thrown out and gets replaced with better theories.

Like the theory that earth is the center of the universe got replaced by something better.

Falsification has a strict definition. It's not the opposite of verification. Dividing personality into 16 categories has not been "proven false". There is simply a lack of verification.

Finding verifying evidence for one theory does not automatically falsify another. Big 5 only has more verification than MBTI. There is actually debate about there being a sixth category (HEXACO).

Edited March 27, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Blackhawk]

19 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Falsification has a strict definition. It's not the opposite of verification. Dividing personality into 16 categories has not been "proven false". There is simply a lack of verification.

Finding verifying evidence for one theory does not automatically falsify another. Big 5 only has more verification than MBTI. There is actually debate about there being a sixth category (HEXACO).

Ok I guess earth is center of the universe then. All previous wrong scientific theories are from now on absolutely correct.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Boethius]

This is a good article on MBTI:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/03/09/should-you-trust-the-myers-briggs-personality-test/

The criticisms are mainly philosophical ones about the personality model being discrete rather than continuous (at the Big 5 and HEXACO are). Thinking about introvert vs extrovert I think clarifies the issue. For people who are extremely introverted, learning that one is an introvert can help make a lot of sense of oneself. But for people who are in the middle of the introversion/extroversion spectrum, discovering you're in the middle may well say little of great value about you. This seems like a problem that's unavoidable when discrete models of personality are based on continuous spectra (as MBTI is).

I'm not sure what to make of this myself, other than the ambiguous statement that some people find MBTI useful (those that hew to a particular personality type) whereas others don't (those who are on the boundary between different personality types & perhaps those who belong to the most common personality types?) Maybe we have to consider what is the purpose of personality tests in the first place, what are we hoping for them to tell us about ourselves. In any case, it is not as simple as "science has proven MBTI to be false".

[Blackhawk]

11 minutes ago, Boethius said:

This is a good article on MBTI:

https://areomagazine.com/2021/03/09/should-you-trust-the-myers-briggs-personality-test/

The criticisms are mainly philosophical ones about the personality model being discrete rather than continuous (at the Big 5 and HEXACO are). Thinking about introvert vs extrovert I think clarifies the issue. For people who are extremely introverted, learning that one is an introvert can help make a lot of sense of oneself. But for people who are in the middle of the introversion/extroversion spectrum, discovering you're in the middle may well say little of great value about you. This seems like a problem that's unavoidable when discrete models of personality are based on continuous spectra (as MBTI is).

I'm not sure what to make of this myself, other than the ambiguous statement that some people find MBTI useful (those that hew to a particular personality type) whereas others don't (those who are on the boundary between different personality types & perhaps those who belong to the most common personality types?) Maybe we have to consider what is the purpose of personality tests in the first place, what are we hoping for them to tell us about ourselves. In any case, it is not as simple as "science has proven MBTI to be false".

It took me 2 seconds to Google search Areo Magazine, and found this https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Areo_Magazine  I feel bad for even giving that shit site (Areo) more visitors by visiting their site. I need to be more careful about clicking on links in the future, lesson learned, always Google first.

So no need to even read the Areo Magazine article, it can immediately be dismissed as horse shit. Only credible sources are worth anything.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Boethius]

4 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

It took me 2 seconds to Google search Areo Magazine, and found this https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Areo_Magazine  I feel bad for even giving that shit site (Areo) more visitors by visiting their site. I need to be more careful about clicking on links in the future, lesson learned, always Google first.

So no need to even read the Areo Magazine article, it can immediately be dismissed as horse shit. Only credible sources are worth anything.

I thought at the beginning of this thread you said you don't know anything. By the sounds of it you know everything! By the way, the Areo Magazine article has author "Laith Al-Shawaf, Ph.D. is a researcher and Assistant Professor of Psychology at the University of Colorado". But if you want a different article on MBTI you could try

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-brothers-keeper/202002/in-defense-the-myers-briggs

[Blackhawk]

11 minutes ago, Boethius said:

I thought at the beginning of this thread you said you don't know anything. By the sounds of it you know everything! By the way, the Areo Magazine article has author "Laith Al-Shawaf, Ph.D. is a researcher and Assistant Professor of Psychology at the University of Colorado". But if you want a different article on MBTI you could try

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/my-brothers-keeper/202002/in-defense-the-myers-briggs

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/myers-briggs?amp

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201402/the-truth-about-myers-briggs-types?amp

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/quantum-leaps/202005/dont-let-your-children-take-the-myers-briggs?amp

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/quantum-leaps/202004/two-reasons-personality-tests-myers-briggs-could-be-harmful?amp

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die?amp