No idea what is going on

[neovox]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

The problem is of course that any experience can be explained away as a unreal hallucination.

I have experienced stuff, which I later classified as hallucinations.

Psychedelic or any "peak" experiences are insufficient alone. They're like the icing on the cake. How you get the hard earned experience idk... 

 

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Another thing which kind of pisses me off is the selective experience cherry picking which you guys choose to believe in.

For example (extreme example) if my direct experience is that reality is hell (not love at all), then you guys say: "that's a false experience. That's not at all the truth. I don't like feeling bad so it must be untruth."

 

The real life, everyday experiences of self created "hell" and suffering  can really give you some wisdom and context. A couple decades of self created hell messily hacked through and properly reflected on, add some healthy lifestyle choices, meditation, study wise resources,  then sprinkle a few mystical experiences. Try that recipe. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by neovox

[Seeker531]

@Blackhawk

 

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

 

The problem is of course that any experience can be explained away as a unreal hallucination.

I have experienced stuff, which I later classified as hallucinations.

A few days ago I had a discussion with a guy on a different forum who had clinically died and had a full blown near death experience. He have also on psychedelics and during meditation experienced everything that people in this forum like to talk about. And he explains them all away as unreal hallucinations, he's still a materialist and doesn't believe in life after death and so on.

The thing I observed is that such experiences are so convincingly real that the ego makes stuff up afterwards and denys it in order to conserve its sense of reality. One thinks about reality with a conditioned mind which means that those thoughts are not yours. So everything one thinks is not the real thing and alters the experience inevitably. So no one can know the truth. Might be better to stick with direct experience and inquiring the nature of thoughts and that means observing the thinking as it happens. For example you can the pov where your thoughts are just a learned reaction to certain previous experiences like other thoughts or feeling etc. 

I hope that this is helpful. 

 

 

 

[Bodhitree]

2 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

The problem is of course that any experience can be explained away as a unreal hallucination.

I have experienced stuff, which I later classified as hallucinations.

A few days ago I had a discussion with a guy on a different forum who had clinically died and had a full blown near death experience. He have also on psychedelics and during meditation experienced everything that people in this forum like to talk about. And he explains them all away as unreal hallucinations, he's still a materialist and doesn't believe in life after death and so on.

You might object with "then he's just stupid and/or low conscious."  Maybe, or maybe not, who the hell knows. But it proves that experience doesn't prove shit.

It requires belief to believe in experience. You can believe that the experience shows either the truth or untruth.

I’ve come across gurus from India who say that enlightenment needs to be nurtured. This guy on the other forum chose not to nurture his experience, and return to the perspective of a materialist. He chose to turn down the opportunity he was offered to change his life. It happens to some people, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently. 
 

[Blackhawk]

Just now, Bodhitree said:

I’ve come across gurus from India who say that enlightenment needs to be nurtured. This guy on the other forum chose not to nurture his experience, and return to the perspective of a materialist. He chose to turn down the opportunity he was offered to change his life. It happens to some people, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently. 

"Nurture".. Well, that's one way of saying that you have to believe in the experience.

[Blackhawk]

17 minutes ago, Bodhitree said:

I’ve come across gurus from India who say that enlightenment needs to be nurtured. This guy on the other forum chose not to nurture his experience, and return to the perspective of a materialist. He chose to turn down the opportunity he was offered to change his life. It happens to some people, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently. 

And also, you're saying "opportunity to change his life"..

You need to separate the truth and what is good for your life. Don't assume that truth equals to a better life. But maybe it does, I don't know.

This issue with wishful thinking is huge. Your mind will convince you of anything that is good for your life. Just look at how many religious people and other crazy deluded people there are.

But again, maybe Christianity or whatever is true, I don't know. I just don't always end everything I say with "but I don't know".

Edited March 21, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Bodhitree]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

And also, you're saying "opportunity to change his life"..

You need to separate the truth and what is good for your life. Don't assume that truth equals to a better life. But maybe it does, I don't know.

This issue with wishful thinking is huge. Your mind will convince you of anything that is good for your life. Just look at how many religious people and other crazy deluded people there are.

But again, maybe Christianity or whatever is true, I don't know. I just don't always end everything I say with "but I don't know".

If it leads to greater awareness, greater consciousness, then it cannot be bad. This guy had an experience, first-hand, and instead of integrating it into his life he choose to ignore it, and live a life where he believed something other than his lived experience was telling him. To me that sound like playground behaviour, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nya-nya-I-can’t-hear-you. 
 

You could even argue that there is no such thing as hallucination, that everything that you experience is a little bit true. Think of these things as dreams, they are part of your experience but not precisely.

[Blackhawk]

6 minutes ago, Bodhitree said:

If it leads to greater awareness, greater consciousness, then it cannot be bad. This guy had an experience, first-hand, and instead of integrating it into his life he choose to ignore it, and live a life where he believed something other than his lived experience was telling him. To me that sound like playground behaviour, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nya-nya-I-can’t-hear-you. 
 

You could even argue that there is no such thing as hallucination, that everything that you experience is a little bit true. Think of these things as dreams, they are part of your experience but not precisely.

If greater consciousness is good, then animals are living in hell? Since their consciousness is much lower than for humans.

If they are not living in hell: why not?

[roopepa]

Quote

"Truth is not a sum of statements, not a definition, not a system of concepts, but a life."

- Kierkegaard

I'll take it a bit further and say that what really connects you to life, is feeling.

How are you feeling? That's the real juice.

[Blackhawk]

40 minutes ago, roopepa said:

I'll take it a bit further and say that what really connects you to life, is feeling.

How are you feeling? That's the real juice.

I feel like shit.

 

I think it's really frustrating and weird that this life and all included suffering seems to be completely unnecessary. Meaning, there is probably no reward after you finish this life. So there is no meaning to any of this. Why do we live? I don't get it. It's all for nothing. It's like you would struggle and struggle with a task, but you don't know why you do it and there's nothing to gain from it, no salary, no reward, nothing.

I really hate this shit. Fuck everything. Really just screw everything. I don't want any of this, I really really don't.

(This is how I'm currently feeling.)

And don't say that I create the meaning. Or that I create all this. Or that I create anything at all. Just don't, because it's not true. Clearly clearly not. But I guess I don't know this either. But it feels super super unlikely that I'm the creator.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

You would never work a single day without salary, but you are supposed to work and suffer a entire freaking life without any salary whatsoever. And you don't even know how you got here.

Reality and life is so absurd that I almost get a stroke when I think about it. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Blackhawk

[snowyowl]

You're right this is a tricky topic, because there are lots of different systems of knowledge (epistomologies), ie truth claims, like empirical science, religion, common sense, practical experience (such as learning carpentry), theoretical studies like maths, philosophy, none of which gives an infallible guide to truth. We are humans after all, just another animal on one out of trillions of planets. I'm interested why this is causing such a problem for you? Not to deny your valid experience, but isn't it equally valid to be amazed that a bit of stardust can come together and create all this variety? 

4 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Reality and life is so absurd that I almost get a stroke when I think about it.

Yes but absurdity is a human experience as far as I know, other animals don't feel it, so it's probably a product of our makeup. I guess that most of us humans ignore it and focus on pragmatism, what works to make us happy, earn a living, cure our diseases etc. Pragmatism is a type of truth too.

5 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

I feel like shit.

Sorry to hear this, I've seen it in some of your other posts too. I really wish the best for you. Even if we are happy and successful in this life, we've got to lose it all in the end, from the pov of the individual self it is tragic. Maybe that's why we yearn for connections, relationships, and belonging to something greater than ourselves, transcendence. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by snowyowl

[neovox]

3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

I feel like shit.

 

I think it's really frustrating and weird that this life and all included suffering seems to be completely unnecessary. Meaning, there is probably no reward after you finish this life. So there is no meaning to any of this. Why do we live? I don't get it. It's all for nothing. It's like you would struggle and struggle with a task, but you don't know why you do it and there's nothing to gain from it, no salary, no reward, nothing.

I feel you struggle, brother. You're probably right about all of the lofty spiritual stuff from where you're currently standing. A practical approach is would yield benefits. All of this shit is just concepts that will just have you chasing your tail at this point. Get out and engage the world. Do something physically challenging every day. Develop a healthy diet. Practice shopping and cooking well. Work in the service industry for awhile. Have some relationships come and go. All the while reflecting, and with a sensitivity to what makes you feel heavy (the way you currently describe), and what makes you feel light and joyful. Really develop that sensitivity within yourself. Journal, meditate, spend quality time with yourself. You will have to arrive through your own conscious choice. THAT is the point. THAT is why you struggle. There is massive reward on the other side. But you have to arrive. You have to take total responsibility. You have to grind out emotional labor willingly. From that position you will discover that you are indeed the creator of your reality. All this time you thought you were reacting to your environment... You've been creating it. 

[Bodhitree]

5 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

If greater consciousness is good, then animals are living in hell? Since their consciousness is much lower than for humans.

If they are not living in hell: why not?

Animals have less potential than humans, they are simpler, more emotive. But they don’t live in hell, hell is an imaginary place of intense suffering. Humans can suffer intensely, but they don’t go to an imaginary place to do it. For the most part, human suffering comes from the mind. 
 

There are always more questions, it is also a function of the mind. 

[roopepa]

@Blackhawk Choose the truth that feels good. Why not? Nothing in your mind or sensemaking is real anyway.

But feeling... Always here and now, always actual.

[integral]

All truth is relative. You solved it (relatively). lol

Christians believe Christianity is the one true truth and their 100% right, while at the same time being 100% wrong from every other perspective. 

Right now nothing is knowable from your perspective and your 100% right, while at the same time being 100% wrong from a more inclusive perspective. 

The bigger a picture you see the more right you are. lol

Some truths are more true then others. There is always a truer truth. With the exception of Absolute truth. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by integral

[Blackhawk]

21 hours ago, NondualesStudium said:

I am sorry to hear that. I know how shitty an existential crisis can feel like from my own experience.

Oh, how often did I ask myself desperately: "What's it all for? Why is there no meaning? Where's the f**ing reward for all this?"

Until I suddenly stopped.

You didn't solve the problem/question, you just stopped thinking about it..

You just swept it under the rug. But I'm not saying that's wrong to do.

2 hours ago, roopepa said:

@Blackhawk Choose the truth that feels good. Why not? Nothing in your mind or sensemaking is real anyway.

No.
Because I value the truth over feeling good. At least up to some limit..

"Nothing in your mind or sensemaking is real anyway."
That's a dangerous assumption.

1 hour ago, integral said:

All truth is relative. You solved it (relatively). lol

Christians believe Christianity is the one true truth and their 100% right, while at the same time being 100% wrong from every other perspective. 

Right now nothing is knowable from your perspective and your 100% right, while at the same time being 100% wrong from a more inclusive perspective. 

The bigger a picture you see the more right you are. lol

Some truths are more true then others. There is always a truer truth. With the exception of Absolute truth. 

No, they aren't 100% right.
You guys are shitting on the truth with your lazy, unserious, armchair, crazy, mental masturbation ideas. You're just playing around.

But I don't want to argue..

Edited March 22, 2021 by Blackhawk

[integral]

23 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

You guys are shitting on the truth with your lazy, unserious, armchair, crazy, mental masturbation ideas. You're just playing around.

But I don't want to argue

ahah, no need to argue, but definitely curious to know the mistake that was made? 

The phrase "truth is relative", what does that mean to you when you hear it?

Edited March 22, 2021 by integral

[roopepa]

7 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Because I value the truth over feeling good. At least up to some limit..

Why do you value "truth" over feeling?

What if the truth is feeling?

Edited March 23, 2021 by roopepa

[Barbara]

On 20/03/2021 at 6:37 PM, Blackhawk said:

How am I supposed to know what is true. I really don't know anything ?

This is sooo relatable  
Welcome to counterproductive relativism. I find it helpful to ground myself in intuition and feel. Pure rationality won't help you to make sense of the world.

Here's this thread where amazing people on this forum just dropped out gems.

[Blackhawk]

@artcastle I don't love anyone.

I have the book and I have read it.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Blackhawk