Does the illusion stop after death?

[GreenWoods]

4 minutes ago, freejoy said:

I'm not so sure about it. We could just as easily say we "see" through some other means, like mind perception or something.

It would be belived in.

But here we are with mechanical eyes. Not esp seeing. Either one could be belived to work.

you are right, I'm sure scientists would come up with another story?

But the story ot physical eyes is pretty convincing for most people. Hard to beat that.

[eputkonen]

3 hours ago, freejoy said:

Say the Enlightened Ones are correct and all reality is only imagination, or dreamstuff.

What happens after death?

Does one return to the nothingness from which one came?

Or does one enter into another imagined reality in the astro worlds?

Say our body/soul/mind/memory is held together by intelligence. Why would the intelligence defuse into nothingness?

Could intelligence that holds the body/erthric together continue holding aspects of it together after death?

Death is an illusion.  The game or dream continues on...178,000 new player characters began today on Earth and 75,000 ended (game over).  But the game continues on.

There is no "one" to return to something.  Being an individual is an illusion.  What you really are is the whole show/game.  The "death" of individual body/minds does not change or impact this.

[GreenWoods]

8 minutes ago, freejoy said:

Also according to out of body experience they don't have physical eyes but seem to see.

In most OBEs where you have a body, you have eyes the same way your physical body has. (which is no eyes, until you look into a mirrow. Actually you don't even have eyes then. The mirror has lol).

In some OBEs 'you' are just a point of awareness, without body. (actually, there are just appearances, and one appearance is the sensation/illusion of being located as a point of awareness). And yeah, there are still visuals, no eyes needed.

Edited March 18, 2021 by GreenWoods

[freejoy]

3 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

you are right, I'm sure scientists would come up with another story?

But the story ot physical eyes is pretty convincing for most people. Hard to beat that.

In the evolution of life one didn't have to be a scientist to figure out that if an eye got hurt it couldn't see.

Somewhere before even humans or Enlightened Ones there was a working eyeball.

: )

[James123]

1 hour ago, freejoy said:

Well if there is no water then walking on it should be easy!

: )

?

 

1 hour ago, freejoy said:

Yeah, I have a beginners mind. See how special l am!

Hehehe

?

 

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

The illusion only stops with mahasamadhi.

If you stop thinking, Mahasmadhi is now. Because if you dont think thats the end of the illusion, such as so called deep sleep. 

[GreenWoods]

2 minutes ago, James123 said:

If you stop thinking, Mahasmadhi is now. Because if you dont think thats the end of the illusion, such as so called deep sleep. 

Ultimately, this right now is the same as mahasmadhi. Thinking or no thinking makes no difference about that.

From the relative perspective, this right now is not mahasamadhi, and stopping thoughts also makes no difference about that.

At least not for 'me'.? 

IME, there is no significant correlation between normal thoughts and the solidity of the illusion. (unless I completely void the mind, even every subtle surface thought/mindtendency. Plus immense focus. If I do this I enter a dissociative state. But I don't think this is what you are referring to).

What happens in 'your' experience when 'you' stop thinking? Does it make a difference?

[James123]

7 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

What happens in 'your' experience when 'you' stop thinking? Does it make a difference?

Thinking, mind or experiencing is a thought itself. There is no mind to think. 

13 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

28 minutes ago, James123 said:

 

Ultimately, this right now is the same as mahasmadhi. Thinking or no thinking makes no difference about that.

 

Therefore no thinking. Naming and labeling and putting meaning on thoughts creates distinction. 

15 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

From the relative perspective, this right now is not mahasamadhi, and stopping thoughts also makes no difference about that.

If you dont think, how can it be relative perspective? “Relative perspective” comes from thinking. If you dont think, can you come up as relative perspective? 

[GreenWoods]

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

Thinking, mind or experiencing is a thought itself.

I used these words to point to 'something'.

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

. There is no mind to think. 

?

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

Therefore no thinking. Naming and labeling and putting meaning on thoughts creates distinction. 

Unless thoughts have been stripped of the illusions they usually bring along, and are 'seen' for what they are.

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

If you dont think, how can it be relative perspective? “Relative perspective” comes from thinking. If you dont think, can you come up as relative perspective? 

True. Relative perspective is a thought. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by GreenWoods

[James123]

24 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Unless thoughts have been stripped of the illusions they usually bring along, and are 'seen' for what they are.

Illusion is a thought itself. Word of “Illusion” is an illusion itself. Only identification with thoughts so called creates so called reality. If you not know (no identification with thoughts) how can be there as “reality” , “death” or “mahasamadhi”? 

Take an example of “deep sleep” and “relative world”? If you dont think or know (sun, universe, daylight, eyes, seen, body, movement, I, life, death, life, deep sleep, enlightenment, vsvs), what will be the difference between deep sleep and life (or  relative world)? 

[cuteguy]

There is absolutely nothing ever except as a thought. We have heard this a million times but still we don't get it.

If you get it even for an instant reality breaks, and then un-breaks when the next thought arises.

A thought is NOT just a sound in the mind. The sound in the mind is just the tip of the iceberg. 99.9999999% of the thought is invisible. Because behind the sound that you hear in the mind, there is the iceberg the whole conceptual framework that you've built throughout your life.

Here is an example:

If you think the thought "I don't like this situation"

You might think that that's the whole thought. It's not! That's just the tip of the thought. The iceberg, let's say, underneath that thought is:

A definition of "I" for example : A human living on top of earth who is capable of liking and not liking"
A definition of each concept included in the previous sentence (human, earth, living, liking, not liking ...).
A definition of each concept of included in the definition of those concepts.
Etc...

Once you understand this, there will be no more real questions. Because every question that you will have is only a thought, and you've understood what that a thought is.

With that said, what is "death"? what is "life"? what is "me"? what is "before"? what is "after"?  what is "the universe"?

Good luck!

[GreenWoods]

5 hours ago, James123 said:

. Only identification with thoughts so called creates so called reality. ? 

Not for me. If thoughts stop, there is still illusion, ime.

5 hours ago, James123 said:

. If you not know (no identification with thoughts) how can be there as “reality” , “

Through a sublte feeling/belief, without mental words / thoughts.

Maybe your definition of "thoughts" is larger. Does your defintion include these subtle feelings/beliefs? 

If it does, then your advice of "stop thinking" is very good  advice, but also very difficult to actualize. Even with insane meditation skills or a big psychedelic dose, you don't completely stop these sublte feelings/beliefs.

5 hours ago, James123 said:

Take an example of “deep sleep” and “relative world”? If you dont think or know (sun, universe, daylight, eyes, seen, body, movement, I, life, death, life, deep sleep, enlightenment, vsvs), what will be the difference between deep sleep and life (or  relative world)? 

For there to be no difference between deep sleep and life, requires a very radical deconstruction. Not merely of mental words / thoughts but all subtle mind phenomena like feelings, beliefs, etc must be completely stopped or completely seen through. I doubt this is the case for you. I don't even think it was the case for someone like Buddha. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by GreenWoods

[PureRogueQ]

23 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

For there to be no difference between deep sleep and life, requires a very radical deconstruction. Not merely of mental words / thoughts but all subtle mind phenomena like feelings, beliefs, etc must be completely stopped or completely seen through. I doubt this is the case for you. I don't even think it was the case for someone like Buddha. 

If you destroy something and you get something else in place, there are people who think they are Jesus Christ reincarnation, that demons are real and so forth, if you destroy mind , time , well you cant destroy it, you can only change what you perceive, anyway , if you destroy these things  there will be no birth and no time for you, technically they are gone nowhere , this information is still somewhere there, you have people who get stuck in non -dual states for life time. And it is really no different from you being stuck on thinking what you are right now. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[GreenWoods]

9 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

If you destroy something and you get something else in place, there are people who think they are Jesus Christ reincarnation, that demons are real and so forth, if you destroy mind , time , well you cant destroy it, you can only change what you perceive, anyway , if you destroy these things  there will be no birth and no time for you, technically they are gone nowhere , this information is still somewhere there, you have people who get stuck in non -dual states for life time. And it is really no different from you being stuck on thinking what you are right now. 

Exactly?

[James123]

7 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Not for me. If thoughts stop, there is still illusion, ime.

Through a sublte feeling/belief, without mental words / thoughts.

Maybe your definition of "thoughts" is larger. Does your defintion include these subtle feelings/beliefs? 

If it does, then your advice of "stop thinking" is very good  advice, but also very difficult to actualize. Even with insane meditation skills or a big psychedelic dose, you don't completely stop these sublte feelings/beliefs.

For there to be no difference between deep sleep and life, requires a very radical deconstruction. Not merely of mental words / thoughts but all subtle mind phenomena like feelings, beliefs, etc must be completely stopped or completely seen through. I doubt this is the case for you. I don't even think it was the case for someone like Buddha. 

You have to go way deeper. If you really dont think, nothing never happens. Thats what enlightenment is. Realization occurs that you are already what you are and where you are as always been, forget about birth, not even moved nor began. Thats why meditation is must. Specially living in darkness and silence at least more than couple years. 

7 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

you have people who get stuck in non -dual states for life time. And it is really no different from you being stuck on thinking what you are right now. 

If you think that now is life, instead of non duality, this is not even close to enlightenment.

7 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

If you destroy something and you get something else in place, there are people who think they are Jesus Christ reincarnation, that demons are real and so forth, if you destroy mind , time , well you cant destroy it, you can only change what you perceive, anyway , if you destroy these things  there will be no birth and no time for you, technically they are gone nowhere , this information is still somewhere there, you have people who get stuck in non -dual states for life time. And it is really no different from you being stuck on thinking what you are right now. 

@GreenWoods @PureRogueQ This what enlightenment is. You no longer operate from ego, just control the ego. No longer think as ego, you become the moment and just thoughts arises. Ego is just a device to connect to duality. Identification with 1 thought brought back entire duality (for ego). Therefore no longer identification with thoughts, only when it is necessary (because survival needs never goes away). No longer day dreams, future expectations. Being the moment and completely free. When you so called close your eyes, there is no time, you nor universe, just nothingness. And become the freedom and moment. Do you think after nirvana, you still operate as a normal human being? ? so what is the enlightenment for, mental masturbation? ?

Guys these sentences are not you put down, but make you realize enlightenment is way deeper than your current consciousness level. Be aware of this and dont be stuck in your current level. 

[PureRogueQ]

11 minutes ago, James123 said:

You have to go way deeper. If you really dont think, nothing never happens. Thats what enlightenment is. Realization occurs that you are already what you are and where you are as always been, forget about birth, not even moved nor began. Thats why meditation is must. Specially living in darkness and silence at least more than couple years. 

If you think that now is life, instead of non duality, this is not even close to enlightenment.

@GreenWoods @PureRogueQ This what enlightenment is. You no longer operate from ego, just control the ego. No longer think as ego, you become the moment and just thoughts arises. Ego is just a device to connect to duality. Identification with 1 thought brought back entire duality (for ego). Therefore no longer identification with thoughts, only when it is necessary (because survival needs never goes away). No longer day dreams, future expectations. Being the moment and completely free. When you so called close your eyes, there is no time, you nor universe, just nothingness. And become the freedom and moment. Do you think after nirvana, you still operate as a normal human being? ? so what is the enlightenment for, mental masturbation? ?

Guys these sentences are not you put down, but make you realize enlightenment is way deeper than your current consciousness level. Be aware of this and dont be stuck in your current level. 

Nothing you said is anything new to me or that I have not experienced, suit your own needs, Enlightenment is good , it does get rid of ego , it ends suffering, what else to say there, it is no more deeper then your delusion. 

[James123]

6 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

Nothing you said is anything new to me or that I have not experienced, suit your own needs, Enlightenment is good , it does get rid of ego , it ends suffering, what else to say there, it is no more deeper then your delusion. 

There is no “I” nor “you experience something “. “You” is too strong. Not even close to enlightenment. 

Peace!

[GreenWoods]

20 hours ago, James123 said:

. Realization occurs that you are already what you are and where you are as always been, forget about birth, not even moved nor began.

Thoughts don't necessarily prevent that realization. When thoughts have no more illusory power, it doesn't make a big difference whether they are gone or whether there is some background mind chatter. Then, thoughts prevent realization as little as water streaming in the background. 

20 hours ago, James123 said:

If you think that now is life, instead of non duality, this is not even close to enlightenment.

@GreenWoods @PureRogueQ This what enlightenment is. You no longer operate from ego, just control the ego. No longer think as ego, you become the moment and just thoughts arises. Ego is just a device to connect to duality. Identification with 1 thought brought back entire duality (for ego). Therefore no longer identification with thoughts, only when it is necessary (because survival needs never goes away). No longer day dreams, future expectations. Being the moment and completely free. When you so called close your eyes, there is no time, you nor universe, just nothingness. And become the freedom and moment.

Of course?

[James123]

4 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Thoughts don't necessarily prevent that realization. When thoughts have no more illusory power, it doesn't make a big difference whether they are gone or whether there is some background mind chatter. Then, thoughts prevent realization as little as water streaming in the background. 

Yes it doesn’t. Because there is no such a thing as thought. Not even. Even saying thoughts to “thoughts “ is so called identification, naming, labeling and putting meaning on the words (as saying words to “words”).  Good luck.

Peace!

[GreenLight]

Might be a interesting perspective to watch

[Nahm]

On 3/18/2021 at 7:56 AM, freejoy said:

Say the Enlightened Ones are correct and all reality is only imagination, or dreamstuff.

If all is imagination, dream stuff, clearly there are no separate individual enlightened ones. 

The experiential difference between belief & truth, is one is the truth. 

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What happens after death?

No separate selves = no deaths of no ones.. 

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Does one return to the nothingness from which one came?

And no wheres. 

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Or does one enter into another imagined reality in the astro worlds?

And no anothers.

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Say our body/soul/mind/memory is held together by intelligence. Why would the intelligence defuse into nothingness?

And no ‘separate things’ ‘held together’ by some other thing. 

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Could intelligence that holds the body/erthric together continue holding aspects of it together after death?

Look at ‘your hand’ for example. Obviously nothing is holding ‘it’ together. 

An appearance starts and stops just like a mirage. 

?