White fragility

[Boethius]

@Emerald Thank you for sharing! I'm reading a book right now that takes white shame (rather than guilt) as the central feature of whiteness:

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Be-White-Money-America/dp/0826412920/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=learning+to+be+white&qid=1616696886&sr=8-2

It's written by the (Black female) UU minister Thandeka, and is a really empathetic heartfelt exploration of that idea, in case anyone is curious.

[Avalon]

The solution is not to identify with either white or not-white.

I do kinda feel sorry for white people - in 300 years they will represent less than 2% of the population. On the other hand, revenge for the slave trade and the holocaust?

We all have to go through every experience,. Try not to identify with the separate-self.....rather the universal self.

[vladorion]

17 hours ago, Avalon said:

The solution is not to identify with either white or not-white.

I do kinda feel sorry for white people - in 300 years they will represent less than 2% of the population. On the other hand, revenge for the slave trade and the holocaust?

We all have to go through every experience,. Try not to identify with the separate-self.....rather the universal self.

It's still the separate self identifying as the universal self. It's a nice escape mechanism.

Edited March 26, 2021 by vladorion

[Emerald]

On 3/24/2021 at 3:21 PM, Woke456 said:

You'll have to talk to 4% of Americans in the South from the 1700s to the 1860s, then.  Everyoene else in the US is in the clear and suffered from having slaves just like Roman citizens did after the Punic Wars.

Now that were talking about racial collectivism though, one of the many things white people should be proud of is being the first race to end slavery, starting with the Magna Carta and spreading to all races.

No. We're not in the clear because the shame has yet to be faced and the collective racial trauma wounds have yet to be healed.

If we don't face these things and resolve them, both the white shame and the racial trauma will continue to be passed down from generation to generation. And it doesn't matter how many generations removed from the original wounding we are. The wounds still fester on. 

Nobody is off the hook for anything... so don't go into denial and avoidance mode by reframing it as, "Yay! White people ended slavery." It's nothing more than a tactic to avoid the shame. 

[Emerald]

On 3/24/2021 at 3:33 PM, Etherial Cat said:

@Emerald

It is crazy timing that you had these specific insights because I got them as well today after I took two doses of San Pedro (one on Sunday and one today) ...

I would add that the feeling of shame is not only deeply integrated by white people, it is also very present in anyone who is non-white. I'm currently working on my own feeling of inadequacy and what appear is that it is hard to break free from a POC perspective as well. Our authenticity comes with being able to freely talk about the traumas endured without putting everyone at discomfort... So what I have found out is that not only do I feel shame from integrating the narrative of racism, but I am also feeling shame for asking others to exhume something they don't know how to address. 

I've concluded that racism cause shame both to Black/POCs and White folks, which is why it is so hard to tackle.Shame is an ego mechanism which push people to hide and withdraw, because nothing is worse than feeling like an evil renegade, when deep inside we are longing for reconciliation and unity as you said.

On the topic, there is a very good book named "Why I'm no longer talking with white people about race" from Reni Eddo-Lodge. I've been also reading two books from Dr Jerry Duvinksy which address shame. I'm really thinking that applying his solutions to release the shame on a collective level could get us out of this loop.

That's a great point! I'd imagine that it gets very uncomfortable trying to explain to white people and to be met with all the tactics that white people unconsciously use to avoid shame. And because we're often unconsciously projecting our own shame, I'd imagine that that projection is often absorbed by those we project it upon.

Also, thank you for the book recommendations. I'll keep those in mind for future reading. 

[Emerald]

On 3/24/2021 at 10:31 PM, Roy said:

This problem will solve itself, just be patient and wait for all the boomers to die.

Nope. Time won't heal these wounds. Only awareness, love, understanding, and genuine compassion will. 

[Emerald]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:50 AM, datamonster said:

"White people" vs "black people".

What a superficial duality. I thought in this forum we know better...

Lots of white people attempt to erase racial identity and try to pretend we're a post-racial society or that we should be. And then they convince themselves it's because they're so above it and enlightened. But it's just another avoidance tactic to avoid shame. 

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, Boethius said:

@Emerald Thank you for sharing! I'm reading a book right now that takes white shame (rather than guilt) as the central feature of whiteness:

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Be-White-Money-America/dp/0826412920/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=learning+to+be+white&qid=1616696886&sr=8-2

It's written by the (Black female) UU minister Thandeka, and is a really empathetic heartfelt exploration of that idea, in case anyone is curious.

Thank you. I'll check it out at some point. 

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Isn't that what we should be?

No. Racial identity is important to many people. And you're erasing part of their identity and experiences in pretending that things are or should be post-racial. Notice how it's white people who are the main ones focused on erasing race. And the reason why is because white people are the main ones that feel uncomfortable with race as a reality... because it reminds them of the shame they've internalized because of the unhealed trauma wounds around race. 

4 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Well I'm not enlightened at all, not even spiritual. I'm just trying to be how I would like others to be as well.

When I said "enlightened", I meant that people who try to pretend like they're post-racial have this idea that they're doing something wise and kind by pretending like race doesn't and shouldn't exist. 

But I'm sure that if you were a person of color and dealing with the realities that people of color face, and then attempting to speak about those realities around white people only to have them shut you down and finger-wag you for making racial distinctions, that you would NOT like it.

What it does is invalidate the perspectives of nonwhite people who have experiences with racism on a regular basis. And so, when a person of color talks about their experience as a person of color, and a white person jumps in to derail the conversation or invalidate them by saying "Kum-bay-ah! Let's just let go of this race nonsense and just be one people." this (as you could imagine) would be very tiring and frustrating and would probably aggravate all kinds of individual and collective wounds. 

So, no. You're not trying to be how you'd like others to be... even if you think that's what you're doing. 

[Tetcher]

These white fragilty, white guilt, white shame terms are socially engineered angle of attack made by racists against people of white color. When it comes from white people themselves it means they fell for it or they describe their own experience, it needs not to apply to other white people, everybody has to introspect for themselves.

This angle of attack is a form of gaslighting, or offensive hypnosis, where the racist individual creates a narrative where it is implied that the white person should be guilty and ashamed of something to push him into a submissive behavior. They will imply that the white person racism is a given and then proceed to abuse him for that reason when in truth it is absolutely not a given.

If there are problems in the society it needs not always be because of white people. Contemplate and settle this question for good within yourself, know who you are and these narratives won't be triggering you anymore.

[Boethius]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

No. Racial identity is important to many people. And you're erasing part of their identity and experiences in pretending that things are or should be post-racial. Notice how it's white people who are the main ones focused on erasing race. And the reason why is because white people are the main ones that feel uncomfortable with race as a reality... because it reminds them of the shame they've internalized because of the unhealed trauma wounds around race. 

When I said "enlightened", I meant that people who try to pretend like they're post-racial have this idea that they're doing something wise and kind by pretending like race doesn't and shouldn't exist. 

But I'm sure that if you were a person of color and dealing with the realities that people of color face, and then attempting to speak about those realities around white people only to have them shut you down and finger-wag you for making racial distinctions, that you would NOT like it.

What it does is invalidate the perspectives of nonwhite people who have experiences with racism on a regular basis. And so, when a person of color talks about their experience as a person of color, and a white person jumps in to derail the conversation or invalidate them by saying "Kum-bay-ah! Let's just let go of this race nonsense and just be one people." this (as you could imagine) would be very tiring and frustrating and would probably aggravate all kinds of individual and collective wounds. 

So, no. You're not trying to be how you'd like others to be... even if you think that's what you're doing. 

And I would suggest that us white people do in fact have a racial identity, it's just rooted in defensiveness around the topic of race/racism.

It's amazing how often white people get defensive when I (neutrally) bring up a topic like police brutality, for instance. You would think we could all agree that police brutality is wrong and that Black communities deserve the same quality of policing as predominantly white neighborhoods receive, and yet in my experience white people tend to take the issue personally, as if they were being asked to somehow "betray" their own individual selves by agreeing that police brutality is bad. Maybe it's the fact of my bringing it up in the first place that somehow leads to the defensive reaction, I don't know.

I'm starting to think that a really good way for us whites to determine what our own personal racial identity looks like is to observe how we talk with other white people about race. I will say that I personally try to "advance" the progressive understanding about racial issues (that Black people have been suffering under 400+ years of systematic oppression and that us white people should try to do what we can to undo that legacy) but that I get timid about it when I sense my friends are pushing back against what I'm saying. I also live in upstate NY, which is a hotbed of racism, so I'm not surprised when I hear white people talk about "undeserving blacks" who are benefiting from affirmative action and so forth. It's uncomfortable knowing that a lot of my white acquaintances have views I would probably find to be either objectionable or grotesque should we really plumb the topic of race together.  But of course POC must feel even more uncomfortable with this fact and I am in a better/safer position than they are to try to "educate" white people on these issues. I don't know, except to say that it's difficult even for a white person who is in fact trying to help "end racism" and that there is a lot of room for me to grow in talking about these issues with other white people.

[Avalon]

13 minutes ago, Emerald said:

No. Racial identity is important to many people. And you're erasing part of their identity and experiences in pretending that things are or should be post-racial. Notice how it's white people who are the main ones focused on erasing race. And the reason why is because white people are the main ones that feel uncomfortable with race as a reality... because it reminds them of the shame they've internalized because of the unhealed trauma wounds around race. 

Just because racial identity is important to some people, doesn't validate it as an objective concept.

This is something that a lot of Stage Greens have difficulty with.

The certain impossibility of first-party un-consciousness leads to the certain inevitability of first-party consciousness.

The implications of an omniscient infinite eternal consciousness ultimately leads to the experiencing of every single permutation of experience there is to possibly experience.

So by the time eternity is done, you will have experienced the life of every single human-being on this planet, as an individual experience from cradle to grave. 

Thus, all identities collapse. You literally are all the white people, and you literally are all the black people.

For that reason there can be absolutely no space for group preference or group strategy, and the consequences go far beyond race:-

It has been said that family is one of the most conceptually devilish concepts ever dreamed of, and though a simplistic synopsis, it's not a million miles away from the truth either.

People talk of their "loved ones" and the "ones that they love" , with the tacit relative implication that there are therefore ones that they don't love - which given a correct vantage point is totally impossible and an act of insanity.

Thus, all races, group preferences, tribes, and family loyalties will inevitably and ultimately collapse. It's merely the recognition of the Universal Self within the separate self.

But like I said: this is something that Stage Greens have a problem with, because they are still addicted to the concept of family, along with the exclusive group preference that is afforded to the ones they love.

 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

To me, it is a mix out of the integrated shame that comes with racism (because racism is a collection of dehumanizing narratives per se), the shame of bringing it up (and appear like the one disturbing peace within the status quo) and then the shame of making someone uncomfortable by trying to highlight their devilish mind patterns. Often, I also feel shame afterwards because I never manage to feel like I did good enough after the interaction. Often, I even feel straight bad. Especially if I end up getting angry or show any signs of emotionality (which happens often...)

But yes, the shame that is projected by white people is rough. Though, it is quite often not the primary vibe you'll get from them. It's a bit like these matryoshka dolls, shame is the underlying layer but you might be dealing with another feeling like contempt or anger. Often, as I am perceptive I can see better than them what they think (per example: black people are dumb, ugly, we pretend they are ok out of favor but clearly white folks are better) so I deal with both the pain of the message they send me and often the injustice that caused me to bring it up.

Just as question. As I am not white, would you explain me why white people feel shame? Is it because they are having racist thoughts, negative feelings and biases but don't want to appear as racist for the collective or themselves?

You'll love Dr. Dunvinsky.

I can only speak for myself, but I assume that it's a common pattern.

I was raised in a house with two parents who were against racism... but in a denial kind of way. My entire paradigm around race was that there used to be lots of racism. But then, Martin Luther King came in like a super hero and got rid of all the racism. And that I should love all people and 'not see color'. And it all sounds very nice on the surface, but it's a very bubble-kid way of teaching the topic. And I was sheltered from outside perspective until I was 13, when my parents split up and I lived with my dad in a trailer park where there was lots of racism around me.

But 12 and before, I thought we did live in a post-racial society because that was the picture that was painted for me. And that racists were the evil, horrible extreme minority that was maybe like 1 in every million people. And that these people must also be like serial killers.

I was also raised in a very small town with a 92% white population. So, I was incredibly sheltered in relation to race/racism.

But when I was 11 or 12, I was watching the show Lizzie McGuire. And she and her best friend Miranda always wore these cool hairstyles with pigtails and crimps and braids and stuff like that. So, I went to my mom to let her know that I wanted to get braids, which I was relating to Lizzie McGuire who was played by a white actress named Hillary Duff.

So, my mom looked up a salon in the phone book so that I could get braids. And I go into the salon and for the first time in my life, (other than my mom) I am the only white person in the room. And I feel really shy, awkward, and uncomfortable about it. 

And suddenly, I am the one in a million, evil, racist person. I had been taught my entire life about how racism wasn't around anymore and that only evil people are racist and that I shouldn't even notice color. But here I was in a room with several really nice black women, feeling racially uncomfortable. And I felt like such a terrible person.

And when I got home from the salon that day, I just laid on my bed feeling so empty because I felt ashamed of myself. 

Then, I found a way to convince myself why it was okay. But this was the end of my color blindness. I got really pre-occupied with race for several years after that. I was just really afraid of being outed as a bad person. So, every time I would be around people of color, there was this feeling like "Oh my gosh! What if I say the wrong thing, and I get outed as a bad and shameful person." 

So, I genuinely can't relate to the mindset of seeing people of other races as inferior. Perhaps there are deeper shadows to examine, but that hasn't been a thing for me. I suspect that that mindset goes along with the nationalist mindset, which I've never had. I've never been "Yay! My team is awesome and all other teams suck!" about anything. But I suspect that that's where that mindset comes from. 

The thing for me has been a deep fear of being a bad person and seeing myself as bad because I've internalized the shame of all the racism that's happened in the past and present. But it's been a lot more relaxed since I've learned more about my own privileges and what the defensive behavior is like from the other side. And it's also been a lot less of a 'contents under pressure' situation since I've suspended my attachment to the story of my own sense of goodness. 

But I suspect that a lot of white people are very against racism but have been taught about it in such a way that it makes it much more difficult for them to face their own Shadow in relation to race-related issues. And a big part of that is the internalization of the sense of "I am bad." and the shame of it. 

[Jodistrict]

The woman in the video is obsessed with calling out what she sees as racism.  In the video it can be seen that she enjoys it.  She even calls her husband a racist.  She is making a very good living at this.   It is interesting that stage orange low consciousness corporations are willing to embrace this bullying counter productive approach.

Here is an example of how someone at a high spiritual level would handle this.  Thomas Hueble has led workshops where half the people are children of holocaust survivors and the other half are children of Nazis.  He has them heal each others trauma by talking to each other.  He says that group trauma can only be healed by the people involved communicating in an environment of compassion.

  https://thomashuebl.com/

 

Healing Collective Trauma

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jodistrict

[PureRogueQ]

3 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

How can you see what your friends from minorities experience if you don't take these elements in consideration?

You black friend is most likely having a harder time finding a job, a flat, might get controlled on a more regular basis, might suffer brutality from officers, discrimination on a regular basis and so on.

I would love my white friends to be aware of what is the common black/mixed race experience. Actually, now that I think about it, I think I've always resented by friends and family for not taking the full scope of what I am going through.

Do you know how it is to be them, do you know elements they have to encounter that you don't?

 

 

[Raphael]

@Etherial Cat

Do you think that the extensive use of sarcasm and humour in French culture when speaking of people of other background is a form of masquerated racism?

I was surprised the first time that I heard French people speaking like that about others and about me. After a point I got accustomed to it and considered that normal and started to make jokes with those people. I didn't saw these people as racists, but as friends who don't take things too seriously. However I had a boss in the past who made so much of these jokes that I saw that it made people uncomfortable, but I had difficulties to discern if it was racist or not.

[Loba]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:00 AM, Tim R said:

What do you think about this? Is this idea of "white fragility" itself inherently racist? 

I did not get the chance to watch the whole thing, maybe in a few.
IMO sometimes an action is racist and you don't know it is, and sometimes it is not - it depends on the context.  There is a white bubble.  I relate to it being strange myself, that it is an annoying thing, so I do relate and think that it is a problem that should be fixed because being boxed into an identity is really stressful.  Like, I walk around, I feel... more like awareness than my body.  What if my skin colour was all that was seen?  Nothing else?  That would drive me NUTS.  I swear to God.  I would develop a complex about it.  It would get super OCD in my environment about having to handle being black, whatever that entails with racism.  If I had to deal with race on top of everything else, that would suck tbh.  It would just be one more label to have to try and work through that doesn't feel "right" in the sense that - race - it's a, it's like automatically assigning someone a class just by sight.
And I know how that works, how over time you become it - the box that society puts you in.  It happens so fast, too.  And right under your own damned nose.

"White fragility"... I can see it.  If someone of colour came up to me and started calling me racist - and the energy was really defensive, then I would get flustered and confused, and respond the same way right back unless they could offer me a good reason for why they think I am racist - and that could be backed up with an open conversation.  But if the race card is used for a manipulative reason, which I can only count less than a handful of times, then I will shut down and peace out.

I think that you can become blind to internalized racism, because I see my parents raised in a different time and they have some of it left in them from their culture, but don't feel animosity towards different races - but they don't see it clearly as I do, especially my dad who was raised with racists, he makes jokes and doesn't understand - and times have changed even now, so I would expect that I would be in the same boat.  

I am colour blind to most races, living in Seattle - a lot of Asians, Indians, Mexicans, Eastern Europeans, ect - but there aren't as many black people, there are some neighborhoods, but I don't have a reason to go there for anything or know anyone in that area - and I have not lived in a place, ever, in my life growing up around a lot of black folks - so colour is something I do see initially at first for just that - but with other races it is no longer there.

So this tells me that there is something going on with it - because I don't single races out, but I notice the difference initially simply due to lack of exposure.
So, if people are exposed to many races as children, and it is pretty consistent - a good melting pot of ethnicities - then you do end up with colour blindness - and I think people need to discuss it and work it out until that happens - this generation can raise their children around many different people and this will help.  I used to get a lot of Nat Geo books and stuff when I was small and this helped me to be more interested in folks from different parts of the world, different cultures and stuff.

I like the idea of different cultures, races, religions, because it means that reality is ... not fixed.  That there are so many different ways to view things - that's good.  It's comforting.  It means that all this crap in this culture is just as tossable as anything else.  Too bad people can't just grab the best of everything and combine it.  I wish people were clever enough to do this, then we would all have great lives, the best food, music, dance, communication, artwork, architecture, medicine, spirituality, traditions and genetics.  If humans learned to trade the best of the best and incorporate it, we would be set as a species.  I think and hope this will happen.

We have to be willing to admit that noticing race and having an initial idea based on it is something that humans do naturally, we are wired for it.  We need to see it without it being a big thing, I guess, and try to get people to see commonalities and enjoy differences.  It is a problem, because unless you have been exposed to people of all sorts, this will automatically happen just by the way of how you process the world.  Humans profile each other.  Even if you are not racist, it is such a problem in the world - that this is something in the human psyche that needs to be exposed!  It creates genocide.  It is really a nasty part of humanity - wetiko needs to be seen in a neutral atmosphere.

This is the same mechanism that plays out in different ways.  I totally think it is a problem and I can sit here and write this and know how that feels in my own way because of how it works.  It sucks.  And it is like... you can't really address it, because the fragile person's self image is more important than your value, who you are... it feels like... an excuse to be lazy towards another person's problems and to allow it to continue, while pretending it is all in your head.  And it feels like... no... there is an energy that is dismissive and not quite right, and it doesn't even really belong to anyone, it just sort of... is there, like a residue inside of people - a phantom of ill will towards you that you can't address, that sticks you in a perspective that is not yours, and you can't do or say anything about it because the perpetrator of the energy is too fragile to admit that it exists - so you then end up placating the source of your own discomfort.  

I think that could be what the problem is.

[Boethius]

27 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Again that's not what I meant. I clarified that already. I'm starting to feel you're not really trying to understand what I'm saying.

How do you define "white perspective"? It sounds like you're implying that all white people share the same view?

Of course, being "colorblind" is problematic. I don't deny that. But that's not at all what I am or suggested.

Of course, race is an issue in society that needs to be addressed.

But to me, in my mind, what matters is what kinda person you are not the color of your skin. I really don't see what's wrong with that.

It sounds like you think racism is a merely interpersonal problem. If that were the case, then treating people decently and compassionately regardless of their race, ethnicity, or immigration status would be a good solution. But what you are missing, by the sounds of it, is that racism is also a cultural, institutional, and especially systemic problem. Systemic problems require systemic solutions, which is why the color-blind approach does not work. If you want to be an ally to POC then you need to become attuned to these other dimensions of racism and then start thinking about how you want to fight against those manifestations of racism.

[Boethius]

4 minutes ago, datamonster said:

No, I don't. I do very much realize that it's a systemic problem. This is your projection.

If you recognize that racism is a systemic problem, then why would you write "But to me, in my mind, what matters is what kinda person you are not the color of your skin"? If all people in society (magically) adopted that view of things tomorrow, it would not in itself solve the systemic problems.

[Woke456]

8 hours ago, Boethius said:

And I would suggest that us white people do in fact have a racial identity, it's just rooted in defensiveness around the topic of race/racism.

It's amazing how often white people get defensive when I (neutrally) bring up a topic like police brutality, for instance. You would think we could all agree that police brutality is wrong and that Black communities deserve the same quality of policing as predominantly white neighborhoods receive, and yet in my experience white people tend to take the issue personally, as if they were being asked to somehow "betray" their own individual selves by agreeing that police brutality is bad. Maybe it's the fact of my bringing it up in the first place that somehow leads to the defensive reaction, I don't know.

Considering that black people commit 50% of the homicides in the US but only make up 30% of the police shootings, I think you may need to feel a bit of shame yourself for commenting in public.