White fragility

[Axiomatic]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This never happens. 

When white folks show their best intentions, try to apply the best methods to not be racist and do your best to support causes, you would most probably never appear racist. Racism is not an accident, or something that happens unintentionally with the person accused having had the best purest intentions and yet misunderstood because the agency of explanation is always available at hand, racism does not happen overnight, it's a mentality that grows over time, gets entrenched over time and then reaches a peak point during sensitive situations, if you analyze most claims of racism, they are genuine and the person accused of racism, if you looked into their history of behavior, you'll see evidence of hate towards other races and the need to provoke, an Escalation of their hateful mentality that finally finds an outlet. Racism doesn't happen in a day. Black people aren't sitting around waiting to accuse and lynch white people over nothing but pure intentions. Most people are highly aware of what racism looks like and so they are quite good at differentiating a genuinely racist individual from someone who accidentally happened to offend a non white person. 

Such justifications are just another part of white fragility, the need to protect the ego and the inability to accept  one's own ignorance and the unwillingness to change. 

People with good intentions can easily apologize. Or look for ways to mend things that will minimize racism, in reality this never happens, there's only denial and denial in different ways, but it's denial, a fundamental part of white fragility 

 

This is a fine example. This person is taking what I am saying out of context, and is trying to make me feel bad or wrong for what I am saying. But I know for a fact that I have taken the time to understand myself and how affect my society to the best of my ability, and I am always open to learning more. 

This woman here doesn't seem to approve of that. Apparently I am wrong somehow still. Oh well, guess I am wrong. All I can do is just be good to people *shrug* 

[Preety_India]

Just now, Axiomatic said:

This is a fine example. This person is taking what I am saying out of context, and is trying to make me feel bad or wrong for what I am saying. But I know for a fact that I have taken the time to understand myself and how affect my society to the best of my ability, and I am always open to learning more. 

This woman here doesn't seem to approve of that. Apparently I am wrong somehow still. Oh well, guess I am wrong. All I can do is just be good to people *shrug* 

Well I'm not trying to make you feel bad, if at all that's just equivalent of you saying that people take offense when you did not mean it and it's pointless misunderstanding when you didn't have the intention to offend. Can you see that you did the exact same thing when my intention wasn't that? 

My intention was to prove that most cases of racism, that is the majority of cases are real and genuine and there is ample amount of evidence in the person's historical record to prove that said person was racist.. The cases where a misunderstanding happened and the person genuinely did not have the intent to offend are quite rare and far in between, nobody is looking to crucify white folks but racism is an everyday reality for most colored people, something that is only understood from the eyes of a person of color. 

Once you have that understanding, it's hard to miss the obvious clues and most often your comments won't be misinterpreted as racist. 

Misinterpretation of intent is quite rare and there is always an agency that allows the person to easily settle the misunderstanding. 

So i don't see why an innocent person with pure intentions would ever be accused of racism. 

Racism is not a set code. Anything can appear to be racist. But for the same reasons, we have mutual conversations and opinions to resolve such misunderstandings.. However such resolution is never met in most cases because most racists do not accept that they were wrong, rather they double down on their racism. 

 

[Axiomatic]

Rewind to pre covid, I am playing a pick up game of basketball.

After the game is finished, I am going to get some water.

A black person offers me a sip from his water bottle.

I say no thank you, Ill just get water from the fountain. 

He seems disgruntled and asked me if it is because he is black

That is definitely not the case, I don't feel comfortable drinking from anyone's water bottle. But to him, I appeared racist, when that wasnt my intention. I just gotta accept that I will come off the wrong way in weird situations like that. Wasn't my intention to offend him. 

[Axiomatic]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Well I'm not trying to make you feel bad, if at all that's just equivalent of you saying that people take offense when you did not mean it and it's pointless misunderstanding when you didn't have the intention to offend. Can you see that you did the exact same thing when my intention wasn't that? 

My intention was to prove that most cases of racism, that is the majority of cases are real and genuine and there is ample amount of evidence in the person's historical record to prove that said person was racist.. The cases where a misunderstanding happened and the person genuinely did not have the intent to offend are quite rare and far in between, nobody is looking to crucify white folks but racism is an everyday reality for most colored people, something that is only understood from the eyes of a person of color. 

Once you have that understanding, it's hard to miss the obvious clues and most often your comments won't be misinterpreted as racist. 

Misinterpretation of intent is quite rare and there is always an agency that allows the person to easily settle the misunderstanding. 

So i don't see why an innocent person with pure intentions would ever be accused of racism. 

Racism is not a set code. Anything can appear to be racist. But for the same reasons, we have mutual conversations and opinions to resolve such misunderstandings.. However such resolution is never met in most cases because most racists do not accept that they were wrong, rather they double down on their racism. 

 

My friend was fired from his job because he said he would like to ideally make twenty dollars an hour. His boss accused him of being racist because he thought my friend was feeling entitled to a certain pay. My friend knew that wasnt the case, but accepted that it was a misunderstanding. These things happen way more than you realize. 

And for the record he didnt expect the pay, he just said that would be his goal to work towards. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Axiomatic

[Preety_India]

Well that's a genuine case of misunderstanding that you're described and I'm sorry that you had to go through something like that where you felt demonized for absolutely no fault/offense of yours 

 Yet when you look at media reported cases of racism, those do not fit this paradigm. Most of these cases are genuine, because people cannot be simply accused of racism, there has got to be some tangible evidence to prove it like an email, a racial slur, a racist conversation, a racist statement undermining a race, an event where a black or colored person were either attacked or mistreated in a grossly explicit manner, because to prove racism, certain amount of evidence is needed to back up such claims. 

Racism is an event, a situation and a phenomenon, not simply a black person claiming that they felt offended. 

It doesn't work like that. 

[Axiomatic]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Well that's a genuine case of misunderstanding that you're described and I'm sorry that you had to go through something like that where you felt demonized for absolutely no fault/offense of yours 

 Yet when you look at media reported cases of racism, those do not fit this paradigm. Most of these cases are genuine, because people cannot be simply accused of racism, there has got to be some tangible evidence to prove it like an email, a racial slur, a racist conversation, a racist statement undermining a race, an event where a black or colored person were either attacked or mistreated in a grossly explicit manner, because to prove racism, certain amount of evidence is needed to back up such claims. 

Racism is an event, a situation and a phenomenon, not simply a black person claiming that they felt offended. 

It doesn't work like that. 

I am taking an american indian indigenous studies class, and we are talking discussions of land acknowledgment, and how to give back sacred land to native tribes. But the complicated part about that, is the paradigm which is being operated within acknowledging the land is inherently colonial. 

Of course it is hard for me to see something that deep, because I was born into a colonial system. I accept that there are things I am unable to see without proper guidance. Of course the obvious racist stuff that you see on the news happens, but there are white people with good intentions who don't see the picture as much as a person of another race. 

 

I feel like you are saying "Its easy to stop being racist. Just dont be disrespectful!", and thats obviously easy with the shit that is right in your face. But this shit runs wayyy deeper than the blatant racism. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Axiomatic

[Preety_India]

@Axiomatic I apologise if my comments hurt. 

 

[Axiomatic]

@Preety_India its all good. I think were on the same page more than we realize. And  I apologize if anything I said came off insensitive. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Axiomatic

[Emerald]

I did an Ayahuasca ceremony this weekend and had some insights about racism... specifically the racism happening in America.

One thing I recognized was that underneath all hatred and bitterness (in any situation) is a deep yearning for love, friendship, and oneness. And I could recognize this in the dynamic playing out between all people.

And it came up in relation to men and women. But it also came up in relation to people of different races. 

Then, there was a recognition specifically of American anti-black racism and what causes White Fragility. It has often been called White Guilt, but it is actually White Shame. And these are very different things.

It was clear to me that the collective wounding in relation to slavery, Jim Crow, and present intonations of anti-black America racism have yet to be resolved on a collective level. So, there is a big festering karmic wound on the collective human spirit which has yet to be addressed in a meaningful way in relation to past and present racial traumas. And it doesn't matter how much time goes by, as time will not be the thing that heals this wound... awareness and genuine love will be.

And at the crux of this lack of resolution is White Shame.

To understand this, the distinction between guilt and shame must be understood. Guilt is about doing something wrong and feeling bad about it. Shame is about believing "I'm bad."

During the ceremony, there was a recognition that white people as a collective have internalized the shame of all the human rights violations of the colonizers of the past and subconsciously believe "I am bad" because they resemble the oppressor (and often act as oppressor, even if unintentionally). 

But people in general will protect their sense of goodness at all costs. It is the nature of the ego to assert, "I am good." 

So, shame that asserts "I am bad" and the ego that asserts "I am good" are at odds with one another.

And white people who are dealing with White Shame (which is most white people), will jump through so many hoops to avoid their shame and maintain their identity of goodness because deep down they feel like they're bad and they are trying to hide their feelings of badness from themselves.

And this is why, when people of color bring up racism around white people, white people react really intensely and defensively with White Fragility.

And that's because they're no longer talking to the person of color. They are projecting their own White Shame and buried sense of badness, unworthiness, and shame onto them. And then, people of color become a scapegoat and a reminder to white people of their own internal sense of their own perceived sense of badness. And that happens even when the person of color is being super accommodating (beyond what should ever be expected of anyone) to the white person's fragility. 

And it all comes down to white people having a deep unresolved and unconscious collective sense of shame. So anything race-related can be a trigger for that feeling of shame, and so many white people seek to make everything racially neutral and to minimize the extent of the damage done in slavery, Jim Crow, and beyond. 

But it's really important for white people to face with this feeling of shame because white people won't be able to allow the wounds of the past and present racism to be healed otherwise. Time won't heal these wounds. Only a genuine acknowledgement of the scope of the pain will. And if it isn't resolved in this generation, it will keep passing itself down to the next generation and the next generation and so on. And white people will keep inheriting the sense of shame and people of color will keep inheriting the racial traumas that haven't been resolved because of the unwillingness to look at that shame. 

[ilja]

@Emerald Good stuff

[Woke456]

23 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Guilt is about doing something wrong and feeling bad about it. Shame is about believing "I'm bad."

You'll have to talk to 4% of Americans in the South from the 1700s to the 1860s, then.  Everyoene else in the US is in the clear and suffered from having slaves just like Roman citizens did after the Punic Wars.

Now that were talking about racial collectivism though, one of the many things white people should be proud of is being the first race to end slavery, starting with the Magna Carta and spreading to all races.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Woke456

[PureRogueQ]

6 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I've concluded that racism cause shame both to Black/POCs and White folks, which is why it is so hard to tackle.Shame is an ego mechanism which push people to hide and withdraw, because nothing is worse than feeling like an evil renegade, when deep inside we are longing for reconciliation and unity as you said.

On the topic, there is a very good book named "Why I'm no longer talking with white people about race" from Reni Eddo-Lodge. I've been also reading two books from Dr Jerry Duvinksy which address shame. I'm really thinking that applying his solutions to release the shame on a collective level could get us out of this loop.

Ofc it is hard, one side is put as bad guys, they feel angry as they have done nothing wrong, at least most of them and then they feel ashamed for feeling angry, which in turn makes them anxious around black people as they are torn between acceptance, anger and feeling guilt because of constant brainwashing about how they are worst .

Now it does not help black community either when they are constantly reminded how judgemental and bad white people are , making them angry and making their ego search for slightest signs of racism. 

 

If you ask me media is cancer, it does not help end racism , it just makes it worse. It is like you are getting told how ... world is every day and soon it becomes your reality. 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[Roy]

This problem will solve itself, just be patient and wait for all the boomers to die.

[Preety_India]

26 minutes ago, Roy said:

This problem will solve itself, just be patient and wait for all the boomers to die.

How could you. 

Why would you want all the Buddhas to die lol. 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Preety_India

[Roy]

11 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You lol. 

 

I mean I posted that for some comedic affect, but in my life it's been overwhemingly anecdotally clear that it's only really older people that are racist. I've hardily ever run into anyone below 45 in my country that I could discern was a genuine racist.

It simply won't be socially sustainable to have that kind of hatred with the way demographics projections are going. On my recent travels going out West across my country I've noticed even smaller rural towns are getting filled with Asian/Indian immigrants. Which is great. The faster it happens the better.

I'm willing to bet in 25 years there won't even be a need for movements like BLM anymore because most of the heavy lifting will already have been done. Of course with the internet the way it is there will always be small pockets of hidden cancer, as long as they stay there and don't gain traction again that's good enough.

 

[Preety_India]

@Roy but you forget that they are all Buddhas. 

 

[Roy]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Roy but you forget that they are all Buddhas. 

 

Boomers are Buddhas?

[soos_mite_ah]

4 minutes ago, Roy said:

I mean I posted that for some comedic affect, but in my life it's been overwhemingly anecdotally clear that it's only really older people that are racist. I've hardily ever run into anyone below 45 in my country that I could discern was a genuine racist.

From my experience, a lot of older people tend to be more explicitly racist than younger racist people. But I've met pleanty of people 25 and under who are racist. And it isnt just a small pocket of people. Don't know where you live lol. Progress is much MUCH slower than that. I'm sure people thought the same thing when segregation ended where they thought if the generation of old people died off we'd live in a progressive fantasy. 

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, Roy said:

Boomers are Buddhas?

Of course.. They are wiser older, smarter and experienced. 

Aren't they? 

 

[Roy]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Of course.. They are wiser older, smarter and experienced. 

Aren't they? 

I'm going to assume you're being a little sarcastic here but that's one of the biggest social myths that pisses me off  Just because you're old it doesn't automatically count for anything.

- First off. EVERYONE ages, unless you die early. So it's not a special quality whatsoever.

- Second. You could have gone through your entire life being a complete moron, never having learned from your mistakes.

- Third. There are countless old people who aren't wise about anything. They don't develop themselves at all. They exclusively focus on fulfilling 100% selfish values like getting a ton of money, a house, and a family. They spend zero resources outside of their very limited expansion of concern.

Anyways I'm ranting a little bit for fun at this point, it's just a pet peeve of mine.