White fragility

[Parththakkar12]

@Preety_India Wait, this isn't a blame-game? You actually have a solution? Does it work?

[Preety_India]

@Parththakkar12 yes the solution is to respect all races and to educate racists to not use derogatory language. 

And it's not just language because language and connotations can sometimes create confusion around Intent. 

However actions don't create confusion. 

Racist actions means discrimination attacks, violence against a group of people who belong to a particular race, withholding their rights, not giving them credit for their work, using stereotypes to kill them or justify killing them (police brutality?), encouraging the harassing or abuse of such groups, not giving them justice or legal support. 

So blatant racism is easily visible without confusion. 

The solution is to educate individuals involved in such actions and showing a no tolerance policy. 

In case of police officers where the risk is too high, body cameras can be used and police officers engaging in blatant racism can be suspended from work and given racial sensitivity training. 

For example in the Amber Guyger case, police uncovered racists texts on her phone which indicated she had racist hate towards black people. However she was never investigated. 

There was  ample evidence to prove that Dylan Roof carried racist hate towards blacks to pathological levels as seen in his websites, personal photos and manifestos. Yet nobody took it seriously. 

Proper investigation into claims of racism can cut down racist attacks by a significant amount. 

Cancel culture also helps in preventing future  events of racism. Most recent Example is of Sharon Osborne being reprimanded by CBS for her racist comments on the talk show. This gives a signal that racism won't be tolerated. 

These are tangible measures that help to curb institutional and workplace racism. 

Does it mean that Sharon Osborne will stop being a racist. Not necessarily. We can't know what is going on in their minds. 

But at least other people won't get impacted by their racist actions. 

 

[Preety_India]

This is a hard topic. 

I would appreciate insights of @Forestluv on this topic in some detail.

 

[DocWatts]

White Fragility is a real thing, and is inextricably linked with ethnocentric Identity Politics that are used to manipulate people into Voting against thier own self interests.

Fact is that Right Wing politicians in countries like America have literally nothing to offer policywise that would make an ordinary person's life better in any material way. Exploiting Cultural Divisions to keep people angry and distracted from socio-economic issues has proven a highly successful tactic in America. 

The idea that White people were special just for being white had become so ingrained, that when socio-economic conditions changed and large numbers of whites began experiencing the same sorts of economic deprivation that have long been prevalent in communities of color, the loss of this privileged status began to fuel Right Wing populism.

So while White Fragility is a real thing that we need to come to terms with, the rub is that if the issue is framed in an overly confrontational manner, it's just as likely to push people towards Right Wing populism. A better tactic in my view would be to put more emphasis on the many ways that working class whites and communities of color have both been victimized, and have a common stake in fighting for a more equitable system.

Edited March 18, 2021 by DocWatts

[damas]

lol

 

If you think you should take radical responsibility as leo says, black people need to take radical responsibility for being less wealthy or that some job applications will be more difficult. White people aren't "fragile" when confronted with "white privilege" it's that the confrontation itself can have anti-white elements.

[DocWatts]

25 minutes ago, damas said:

lol

 

If you think you should take radical responsibility as leo says, black people need to take radical responsibility for being less wealthy or that some job applications will be more difficult. White people aren't "fragile" when confronted with "white privilege" it's that the confrontation itself can have anti-white elements.

Unless the deprivations you describe are things that you yourself have had personal experience with, I'd be careful about telling people who've been victimized in ways you haven't that they need to just take responsibility for the precarious situation that they've been placed into.

Radical Responsibility is great if you're just applying it to yourself, but comes off as incredibly ignorant when you begin weaponizing it to delegitimize other people's struggles.

The 'Radical Responsibility' that you espouse cuts both ways, if you're telling blacks that they need to take Responsibility for the additional struggles they face due to thier skin color, then by your own logic Whites have a Radical Responsibility to take ownership for the ways they've benefitted from thier privileged status in Society, and work to dismantle Institutions and Practices that they've benefited from at the expense of other people.

Edited March 18, 2021 by DocWatts

[Jennjenn]

White fragility is 100% real. 
Most races created and supported white supremacy for 100s of years, not only white people. That’s why we see people from other races also pushing against the concept of white supremacy and white fragility. 

Your master and savior, your leader is been dethrone.  the status quo is been broken.  The world as you know it is changing. And even if you’re not white it still affects you because so many changes make you dizzy and upset. Even if you’re not white you might still have white fragility. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jennjenn

[Tim R]

4 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Unless the deprivations you describe are things that you yourself have had personal experience with, I'd be careful about telling people who've been victimized in ways you haven't that they need to just take responsibility for the precarious situation that they've been placed into.

Radical Responsibility is great if you're just applying it to yourself, but comes off as incredibly ignorant when you begin weaponizing it to delegitimize other people's struggles.

Well said.

[Boethius]

36 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

yes the solution is to respect all races

How do we manage to do this without reinforcing racist classification systems in the very first place? I'm thinking here specifically of all of the multiracial folk, whose existence demonstrates that race exists along a continuous spectrum from "total descendant" of European ancestors on the one hand and "total descendant" of African ancestors on the other hand. Do we simply replace notions of race with notions of ancestry as the problem of racism (hopefully) recedes?

[Rilles]

23 minutes ago, damas said:

lol

 

If you think you should take radical responsibility as leo says, black people need to take radical responsibility for being less wealthy or that some job applications will be more difficult. White people aren't "fragile" when confronted with "white privilege" it's that the confrontation itself can have anti-white elements.

 

[Boethius]

2 hours ago, Tim R said:

Is this idea of "white fragility" itself inherently racist?

The Critical Race Theory perspective is that

racism = prejudice + power

Since white people are seen as having all of the power when it comes to setting racial discourse and institutionalizing racialized policies, it follows that it is impossible to be racist against white people. Whether or not the average person on the street would agree with this conclusion, this is a very standard belief for someone who subscribes to the CRT worldview.

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, Boethius said:

How do we manage to do this without reinforcing racist classification systems in the very first place? I'm thinking here specifically of all of the multiracial folk, whose existence demonstrates that race exists along a continuous spectrum from "total descendant" of European ancestors on the one hand and "total descendant" of African ancestors on the other hand. Do we simply replace notions of race with notions of ancestry as the problem of racism (hopefully) recedes?

Classifying systems aren't necessarily racist. This is a flawed notion. One can have differences and still respect them.. 

It's like we have different seasons. But all seasons are equally loved 

We can love each other despite differences. That's actually real love 

 

[damas]

31 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

The 'Radical Responsibility' that you espouse cuts both ways, if you're telling blacks that they need to take Responsibility for the additional struggles they face due to thier skin color, then by your own logic Whites have a Radical Responsibility to take ownership for the ways they've benefitted from thier privileged status in Society, and work to dismantle Institutions and Practices that they've benefited from at the expense of other people.

 

Leo brought up "radical responsibility" in his victim mentality video, and even applied it to rape victims, so then naturally it must apply to racial struggles as well in leo's worldview. As for it also applying to people who benefited from privilege and then also imply they need to work to dismantle it, it doesn't have to, it just says you take radical responsibility for what happens to you and so improve your life.

Edited March 18, 2021 by damas

[Tim R]

2 minutes ago, Boethius said:

How do we manage to do this without reinforcing racist classification systems in the very first place? I'm thinking here specifically of all of the multiracial folk, whose existence demonstrates that race exists along a continuous spectrum from "total descendant" of European ancestors on the one hand and "total descendant" of African ancestors on the other hand. Do we simply replace notions of race with notions of ancestry as the problem of racism (hopefully) recedes?

That's basically the entire problem with trying to get rid of racism.

The end goal is to actually embody the hippie notion of "I don't see race", but in order to get there, we have to take two enormous steps:

1) eliminate systemic racism by

    a) becoming aware of it 

    b) changing the system 

2) and this is the really difficult step: bring up a generation which actually doesn't learn to categorize people based on their skin color anymore than you categorize people based on their hair or eye color. 

 

As @Preety_India said correctly:

4 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Classifying systems aren't necessarily racist. This is a flawed notion. One can have differences and still respect them..

That's actually real love 

There's nothing wrong with seeing, acknowledging, accepting and embracing our inherent differences. It's true, that's actually real love.

Racism arises, when we act in some negatively discriminating manner based on those differences.

 

Btw, "discrimination" has become a bad word. "Discrimination" per se is not a bad thing. It simply means "choosing something over something else" and we do it all the time (-->basically decision making). 

We must be careful not to abandon the notion of "discrimination" altogether. We have to discriminate, but: on a fair basis. 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, damas said:

 

Leo brought up "radical responsibility" in his victim mentality video, and even applied it to rape victims, so naturally it must apply to racial struggles as well.

Leo did not mean it that way where you do not hold others accountable for their actions. 

Standing up for yourself is also a form of radical responsibility? It takes huge balls to stand up for yourself. 

But it also makes your life easier and increases resilience in tough situations. 

 

[Epikur]

The solution:
 

The advanced level:

 

[DocWatts]

31 minutes ago, damas said:

 

Leo brought up "radical responsibility" in his victim mentality video, and even applied it to rape victims, so then naturally it must apply to racial struggles as well in leo's worldview. As for it also applying to people who benefited from privilege and then also imply they need to work to dismantle it, it doesn't have to, it just says you take radical responsibility for what happens to you and so improve your life.

The way that 'Personal Responsibility' is being applied here is in a selfish and immature way. It's basically the narrow and limited lens that Libertarians use to look at the world, and is used to obfuscate how one's actions impact other people. The idea that people in some sense 'get what they deserve', divorced from the context of thier social circumstances as well as the constraints that are imposed them, is an incredibly reductionist way of regarding the lived experience of other people.

The Grown Up version of Personal Responsibility is Social Responsibility; being aware of how you have other responsibilities that extend beyond your own narrow self interest, and not projecting your own life story on to other people; i.e."I overcame adversity, if other people haven't it's because they're lazy and unmotivated."

Or to put it another way: you're not just an individual, you're part of a community.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by DocWatts

[CultivateLove]

Does this apply to ALL white people or just white people in places with a history of white supremacy and oppression of other races?

I'm from Iceland and I'm trying to figure out if I should hate myself and check my white privilege or not.

[vladorion]

28 minutes ago, Epikur said:

The advanced level:

 

I hope this was a joke.

[DocWatts]

5 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

Does this apply to ALL white people or just white people in places with a history of white supremacy and oppression of other races?

I'm from Iceland and I'm trying to figure out if I should hate myself and check my white privilege or not.

Just having the luck to be born into a first world nation is a form of privilege; whether you were born into fortunate or unfortunate circumstances is beyond an individual's control, so it would be silly to be guilt ridden about something you've had no choice in.

I would argue though that those of us born into fortunate circumstances do have at least some responsibility to those who are less well off however. How one should respond to that will depend on the social circumstances of thier society. For someone born in America, that might look like working to recognize and dismantle racial inequities. In more egalitarian societies like Iceland, it might look like contributing to NGOs that address inequities on a more global scale, or at the very least having a degree of humility when people speak of lived experiences that are very different from your own.