Change my mind: it’s all about states, nothing else matters

[Spiral Wizard]

What else is there? 

The entire world is run by everyone consciously or unconsciously trying to create the right ‘emotional cocktail’ within themselves. 
Please tell me why this isn’t true haha, I don’t get why anything could possibly be more relevant?!

Leo said that if you want to get the Truth you need to desire it no matter what (even if it makes you ‘unhappy’). And I get where he is coming from. I agree if he is referring to the ego, in the sense of it’s not easy but worth it.

Of course spiritual work is going to be hard and the expectation that your ego will hate the Truth (make it feel uncomfortable) is helpful. However, I do not agree, if Leo is actually saying that we should pursue the truth for its own sake.  
 

That does not make sense to me...

 

Why would anyone go and pursue enlightenment (the Truth) if they weren’t convinced or had the wisdom to intuit that there is light at the end of the tunnel?
 

I am not attached to the ‘Good Life’, enlightenment, personal development, money, purpose, my family, etc. who cares about that stuff? Or anything for that matter?

The only reason why I do or pursue those things is because in this reality they happen to make me happy and fulfilled (aka give me the STATE I desire). 

But if I existed in a parallel universe where it was more effective to build ‘bad’ habits or do ‘negative’ things (like eating shit, killing babies or watching porn 12h per day) in order to achieve the right ‘emotional cocktail’ or state within myself, I wouldn’t hesitate to do whatever takes.

My thesis is that the ‘content’ of our lives does not matter at all, it’s completely relative. 

Now, you might be saying that consciousness is absolute or that it couldn’t be any other way. And that might be true, but which one comes first? Consciousness or ‘your state’? What is the highest priority? 
 

I would say that it is the state because even if consciousness is the Absolute Truth what is navigating us towards it? What is the priority guiding us? The desire for the highest state! 

 

PS.: just by writing this post and therefore contemplating this topic more deeply, I guess that I came to a new conclusion: 

As long as I haven’t experienced the Absolute directly  everything is relative which means that the only anchor a priority in reality can be the highest state but once you have realized the Absolute, your priority might shift because there’s nothing more fundamental and therefore higher in the hierarchy of priorities than the actual Absolute Truth.

 

So what’s your take on this?

 

 

[oMarcos]

I'll just make it way more simple for you, and for all: Is all about ecstasy.

[Someone here]

It's relative. You create your own purpose and values 

 

[Leo Gura]

Truth should be pursued for its own sake.

If you don't care about Truth, you really don't deserve awakening. And you will probably never get it. And even if you get some of it, you won't get all of it. And even then, you will bastardize it.

Truth is more important than your happiness or whatever it might do for you.

[GreenWoods]

Awakening doesn't necessarily increase your wellbeing. It can increase your wellbeing, but only with enough surrender.

If you don't pursue Truth for Truth's sake, you won't be able to surrender to it, because every other reason you might have for pursuing awakening will be completely shattered (depending on the depth of your awakening).

[Spiral Wizard]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Truth should be pursued for its own sake.

If you don't care about Truth, you really don't deserve awakening. And you will probably never get it. And even if you get some of it, you won't get all of it. And even then, you will bastardize it.

Truth is more important than your happiness or whatever it might do for you.

@Leo Gura but how? At what point did you get there? 

I am full of shit (dogma) if I blindly follow what you say, so how do I get to a point where I genuinely care about Truth and prioritize it above everything else (peace/happiness/fulfillment/joy/ecstasy/all the good stuff/etc.)?

Is direct experience of the Truth the only thing that can change one's mind or is it about plugging the wholes in Maslow's Pyramid of needs, building a solid foundation from which to transcend, and getting to Spiral Dynamics turquoise without any big shadows so you can actually genuinely care about the Truth? 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Spiral Wizard

[gettoefl]

13 minutes ago, Spiral Wizard said:

@Leo Gura but how? At what point did you get there? 

I am full of shit (dogma) if I blindly follow what you say, so how do I get to a point where I genuinely care about Truth and prioritize it above everything else (peace/happiness/fulfillment/joy/ecstasy/all the good stuff/etc.)?

Is direct experience of the Truth the only thing that can change one's mind or is it about plugging the wholes in Maslow's Pyramid of needs, building a solid foundation from which to transcend, and getting to Spiral Dynamics turquoise without any big shadows so you can actually genuinely care about the Truth? 

you are either inspired by the energy of the awakened ones like Leo, or if this is not your time you are not

some words of osho 

[GreenWoods]

56 minutes ago, Spiral Wizard said:

@Leo Gura but how? At what point did you get there? 

I am full of shit (dogma) if I blindly follow what you say, so how do I get to a point where I genuinely care about Truth and prioritize it above everything else (peace/happiness/fulfillment/joy/ecstasy/all the good stuff/etc.)?

Is direct experience of the Truth the only thing that can change one's mind or is it about plugging the wholes in Maslow's Pyramid of needs, building a solid foundation from which to transcend, and getting to Spiral Dynamics turquoise without any big shadows so you can actually genuinely care about the Truth? 

Plugging the holes of Maslows Pyramid, as well as having an awakening experience and directly realizing the ENORMITY of awakening would both help.

 

Did you watch the Matrix movies? Neo was offered a red pill (= harsh truth and exiting the matrix) and a blue pill (= getting lost in illusion again). Some people would take the red pill no matter what, no matter how tough the truth might be. They just want to know the truth. While other people's number one priority is happiness. They would choose happiness over Truth (blue pill).

 

You might be in some alien matrix right now! You know nothing about reality. You have a good conceptual understanding of nonduality, but it's basically worthless. Its only value is as a pointer towards a potential truth. But you have no idea whether it is total bs or not. It doesn't matter how many people tell you what Truth and Reality is, in the end you are just imagining these stories. And are left wihout a hint of Truth. You can't trust any teacher whatsoever. They could be evil aliens in disguise, trying to keep you in the illsuion! Reality could be completely different!!! I am dead serious!!! I'm not just refering to "yeah it's still just a concept until you get it". I'm pointing to something more radical than that. What enlightened people say has no value for getting an idea what Truth/Reality is. It could be completely different. That it might be completely different, has the same probability, from your pov!!! Do you realize the significance?? You are completely clueless. And so deep in illusion that you think you know conceptually what Truth/Reality is. 

You could be in a matrix, in an alien lab, seperate from God, an experiment of an evil God...... You have 0 idea. If you get this, this should give you chills.

Doesn't this make you curious?

You could go and actually figure out what Reality/Truth/God is. 

The red pill is 5meo. ?

[Nahm]

20 hours ago, Spiral Wizard said:

What else is there? 

The entire world is run by everyone consciously or unconsciously trying to create the right ‘emotional cocktail’ within themselves. 
Please tell me why this isn’t true haha, I don’t get why anything could possibly be more relevant?!

Leo said that if you want to get the Truth you need to desire it no matter what (even if it makes you ‘unhappy’). And I get where he is coming from. I agree if he is referring to the ego, in the sense of it’s not easy but worth it.

Of course spiritual work is going to be hard and the expectation that your ego will hate the Truth (make it feel uncomfortable) is helpful. However, I do not agree, if Leo is actually saying that we should pursue the truth for its own sake.  
 

That does not make sense to me...

 

Why would anyone go and pursue enlightenment (the Truth) if they weren’t convinced or had the wisdom to intuit that there is light at the end of the tunnel?
 

I am not attached to the ‘Good Life’, enlightenment, personal development, money, purpose, my family, etc. who cares about that stuff? Or anything for that matter?

The only reason why I do or pursue those things is because in this reality they happen to make me happy and fulfilled (aka give me the STATE I desire). 

But if I existed in a parallel universe where it was more effective to build ‘bad’ habits or do ‘negative’ things (like eating shit, killing babies or watching porn 12h per day) in order to achieve the right ‘emotional cocktail’ or state within myself, I wouldn’t hesitate to do whatever takes.

My thesis is that the ‘content’ of our lives does not matter at all, it’s completely relative. 

Now, you might be saying that consciousness is absolute or that it couldn’t be any other way. And that might be true, but which one comes first? Consciousness or ‘your state’? What is the highest priority? 
 

I would say that it is the state because even if consciousness is the Absolute Truth what is navigating us towards it? What is the priority guiding us? The desire for the highest state! 

 

PS.: just by writing this post and therefore contemplating this topic more deeply, I guess that I came to a new conclusion: 

As long as I haven’t experienced the Absolute directly  everything is relative which means that the only anchor a priority in reality can be the highest state but once you have realized the Absolute, your priority might shift because there’s nothing more fundamental and therefore higher in the hierarchy of priorities than the actual Absolute Truth.

 

So what’s your take on this?

 

 

In believing self referential thinking there seems to be a you, and thus everything is reduced to finite possessions. 

[Consilience]

My take on this topic is that eventually states stop mattering.

I've traveled to some wicked and ecstatic realms on psychedelics, realms that to this day leave me speechless as there is literally 0 context for communication through symbolic language. I've had some of the most indescribably beautiful states of consciousness possible through jhanas. I've felt elated, ecstatic, unified and whole through sexual union. I've felt miserable, cut off, trapped and confused because of my particular life circumstances, wondering why I have to struggle so much while others float by unaware of their privilege. Yet what is that which has watched, witnessed, been conscious of these ginormous ebbs and flows of states? What is even the thing that wants states at all?

There's a grand paradox at play here. The paradox that unless we are in a very specific type of state, truth will never reveal itself. The millions who march through the maze of capitalism, constantly chasing happiness through distractions of every kind prove to us that states matter. If we are caught in such a trance state, a state attached to the stories of separation, externalized happiness, addictions to the pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain, truth will not show up. 

Yet as we move through the various realms of consciousness, we start to encounter increasingly profound states. We start to see that these increasingly powerful, beautiful states dwarf these egoic driven pursuits. How could a night out drinking with friends compare to the full-blown union with source? Well... It doesn't. Until it does.

In my own experience, the deeper down the rabbit hole I go, the deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper the natural, sober, boring state becomes. I no longer feel an insistent pull at the next big psychedelic breakthrough. I no longer feel a need for constant bliss during meditation through jhanas. Simply breathing, simply being in this neutral existence is revealed to be ineffably beautiful. We could call it a state, yet this "state" is the same state I've had throughout my life. There's not particularly more joy, happiness, or any kind of elevation of emotion. Yet the elevation of emotion is much more available! No doubt. As we expand and raise our consciousness, we can see that happiness, joy, and peace are literally on demand and available to tap into in any moment. But a more accurate way to describe what's changed is that states have been entirely re-contextualized, not pushed towards the positive. 

And this is the heart of spirituality, the re-contextualization of all states, the intuitive and absolute recognition that all of the striving for higher states, connecting with god, happiness, and bliss are just more ego. Ironically, as we let go of our spiritual ego's, the attachment to these expanded states gives room for this deep re-contextualization of all states of breathe. Such that no longer do we need happiness to experience happiness, or joy to experience joy; through this insight into the nature of all states, there is an underlying, palpable perfection that solves our paradox - the paradox that although truth and happiness may very well only appear through specific states, Absolute Truth and Absolute Happiness transcend all states. 

Let go of this need for more states, more elevation, more positive emotions and we plant the seeds for a deeper level of emotion, a deeper awareness of truth that is impossible to describe through language. And even more amazing, these more elevated emotions like happiness and joy are MUCH more available. Nothing will snuff away joy like the egoic drive to demand more joy or putting joy on a pedestal. The irony too is that as we do this, our boring, sober state of consciousness begins to radical transform precisely through not transforming at all.

And on a slightly un-related yet entirely related note - Love is the only emotional orientation that would be completely at peace and accepting of all that is. If we are love, then loving all regardless of what it is is the direction we "ought" to move. From the Absolute pov, all states would be loved equally by God. 

[Byun Sean]

@Spiral Wizard

20 hours ago, Spiral Wizard said:

Of course spiritual work is going to be hard and the expectation that your ego will hate the Truth (make it feel uncomfortable) is helpful. However, I do not agree, if Leo is actually saying that we should pursue the truth for its own sake.  

Because see if you only pursue truth when it feels good and makes you happy, you'll never really want the full Truth which is what awakening is.

The full Truth kills you literally.

 

States of consciousness don't exist for you until they come into your experience. Until then you are just imagining what it 

will be like when you hit the next level.

If you pursue states of consciousness for the purpose of feeling good exclusively and that is your only reason 

you will be very disappointed.

 

States of consciousness are just lenses for how much of the Truth are you seeing at any given moment through your direct awareness.

Life was always the same as it always has been. 

Spirituality is just changing your own lens enough to see life the way it actually is more and more.

 

Pursuing the truth is such a counterintuitive thing to do because everyone thinks they already know the Truth (Their own dogma/ worldview).

And then all those people usually end up defending their worldview until they die rather than ever questioning it too deeply. 

 

Also don't conflate absolute Truth with relative truth.

Relative truths can still be very useful like studying spiral dynamics or other scientific models. Studying sexuality, business Etc.

You can meditate in a cave for 40 years and return and be super enlightened lets say. But then you

won't know how to operate or understand anything in the world at all.

Since your not infinitely conscious as you experience life as a human it is still very useful and in your best interest to pursue relative truth

in addition to absolute Truth.

 

[Spiral Wizard]

@Consilience wow, thank you so much for that incredibly well articulated post! It resonated deeply.

[martins name]

@Spiral Wizard The reason we like positive emotion is because it dissolves the dualistic mind. When we have an orgasm our ego melts into the pleasure, when we see something beautiful our wittness melts into the wittnessed.

Enlightenment = perfect non-duality = perfect happiness.

Before I had my first enlightenment experience I had let go of almost everything and I was very blissful. Then I realized that what I authentically really want is being, pure being. So I let go of even the bliss and the attachment to positive emotion. Then I had the enlightenment experience. It was utter perfect happiness.

 

Also you will reincarnate as all other creatures in the universe so better care about their wellbeing too. But then living selflessly is the pinicale of happiness so your wellbeing and the wellbeing of others synergize.

 

Insofar as truth is non-duality it is what you want. However @Leo Gura prioritizing truth over happiness is oxymoronic.