Many Women Have It Worse Than Men (Attraction)

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Peter Miklis said:

@Emerald you basically repeated my points. Looksmatch, personality, minimum looks criteria. So we agree lol

You didn't read what I actually wrote.

Looks aren't the primary criteria like you claimed. It's just one criterion out of many. 

And there's a lot of flexibility that men have in the attractiveness department that women don't. 

Also, minimum looks criteria will change from woman to woman. A woman who's a 3 will probably be happy to date a 1 or 2. A woman who's a 5 will probably be okay with dating a 3 or 4. A woman who's a 10 will probably be okay with dating 7 or 8. 

There's a bar there. But as long as you're not a 4 or 5 looking for a 10, then you probably won't have any issues. 

[RendHeaven]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's a bar there. But as long as you're not a 4 or 5 looking for a 10, then you probably won't have any issues. 

I don't know. I have in fact seen this happen a couple times.

But it's always the physically "ugly" guy with the physically "hot" girl. Never the other way around

But I will grant you that generally speaking there is a difference between "average looking" and "ugly looking."

It takes an exceptionally strong personality to dominate dating (as a man) despite the "ugly" look, and so you don't see it that often, for sure.

Edited March 18, 2021 by RendHeaven

[The0Self]

42 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Women aren’t primarily attracted to looks. And that wasn’t even what she said.

Women are attracted to the whole package. But looks can be a dealbreaker. 

Men can up their attractiveness by two points by developing his personality... and down their attractiveness by two points if he has an underdeveloped personality.

But a female 10 probably isn’t going to go for a male 2. But she might go for a 7 or 8. 

A female 5 probably isn’t going to go for a male 1. But she might go for a 3 or 4.

So, men do have a lot more control over how attractive they are compared to women.

That said, it isn’t true that looks are irrelevant to women’s choice in partner. Most women will seek their looks-match.

Men may have a slight advantage because they're more able to increase their attractiveness without changing their looks -- simply by conveying an uncompromising attitude of "I am a man and you are a woman and therefore I have the power to make you whole," an otherwise physically unattractive man/male can seem attractive to most women. But the advantage is only slight, as women can make themselves super physically attractive by simply doing the trifecta: getting very strong with barbells, fasting or using diet techniques, and over-feeding on protein (and never doing "cardio" again) -- it just tends to allow any woman from number 6 all the way down to 1 to turn themselves into a 7-10. It's easy (well... simple, anyway) but not everyone knows how to do it, or even knows that the option is in fact available. It just takes a holistic knowledge base for that task to be completed without great difficulty, but it can be done, and has been done, many times... That option is in fact available (to any woman reading this). If I were a woman, you better believe I'd be turning myself into a 10 or as close to it as possible.

Edited March 18, 2021 by The0Self

[Peter Miklis]

@Emerald The only reason why I mention and talk about these schenanigans regarding looks is because they are basically left out of the conversation. A lot of people, including Leo, refuse to accept looks as a criteria in attraction, and their talking point is: "You can sleep with any girl regardless of your looks, if you work on your game enough." And that is an OBVIOUS LIE. NO, if you are very ugly, you CANNOT sleep with an attractive girl. This should be an obvious thing, but it's simply ignored ir not mentioned enough.

[RendHeaven]

@The0Self That's actually really interesting. The gym can't mend facial disproportionality or asymmetry though, are you accounting for that when you say that it can turn people into 7-10s?

2 minutes ago, Peter Miklis said:

if you are very ugly, you CANNOT sleep with an attractive girl.

Ok, yeah, if you have a literal facial deformity like you have a tumor growing out of your forehead or you were born without a jawbone, I think you're right.

But 95+% of men can work on their personality and develop the attractiveness to be able to pick and choose who they sleep/date with.

When you claim that "looks are primary," it seems like you're totally dismissing the latter

[The0Self]

58 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@The0Self That's actually really interesting. The gym can't mend facial disproportionality or asymmetry though, are you accounting for that when you say that it can turn people into 7-10s?

I am accounting for that, which is the only reason for the 7-10 (otherwise it'd be 8-10). Sure, there are perhaps edge cases where the best one could hope for is a 5, but some people just have it really hard. Most women are not in that category, but a 5 is still better than a 2. If a woman with a quite-unattractive face gets the body of a supermodel, she will be at least a 7.

When the body looks so fit it causes guys' heartrates to increase with just a glance at their ass, the "ugly" face will then be far more likely to be perceived with compassion; as "sweet/nice," rather than as "ugly." Some have really poor genetics for beauty standards, but with the trifecta of barbell training (heavy deep squats, press, etc), intermittent fasting, and protein-overfeeding (well over 100g a day absolute minimum), any woman can look more similar to a supermodel than 99 percent of women. It's such a powerful intervention because not many women do it, and it produces a body shape that looks irresistible and almost magical to a man -- takes about 3 years but profound results would be noticed within 3-9 months.

Note to women: about the intermittent fasting... It isn't a required component like the other 2, it just makes dieting so much easier. If you already feel you're too skinny, there's no point in doing the intermittent fasting, as it has absolutely no benefits outside of diet adherence -- it's easier to eat 3 good sized meals (example meal: milk, eggs, potatoes, and veggies until satisfied) at 3, 6, and 9 PM (won't even feel like a diet) than it is to eat 5 tiny meals that leave you in a state of low-grade starvation at all times...

Typical example:

 

Again, that's typical, not special. Went from a 4 (or 5 or whatever one's subjective rating is...) to a 9 like it was nothing.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by The0Self

[integral]

@RendHeaven Have you had sex with any women your not attracted to? Most likely if you just went for it and had sex with her you would realize looks make no difference and your tastes will change. 

Its completely all in your head, dont project this out to all men, its just your level of development speaking. When you get older your going to have sex with old people and your going to enjoy it. 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by integral

[integral]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

facial disproportionality or asymmetry

Who cares? Not sure why authenticity matters? Its just a limiting belief. If you grew up in a small village with average women with no media training your sexual vision, then average women would attract you 100%. There is nothing authentic about you. Its programming that should be unlearned.  

Edited March 18, 2021 by integral

[Bando]

Attraction is a brutal game but I disagree with OP original position. Women have it easier than men attracting possible mates and there is no debate about this.

If a woman does the bare minimum self improvement, diet, workout, self-care, make-up she can turn herself into someone who can get options, (not including learning to be more feminine and develop a charming personality). Doesn't mean she will attract all men or even high quality men but she will attract more men than a "regular guy"

I see people saying things along the line of "if the average guy learns game he can get better options than most average women" and while this is true its not the full picture. Most guys don't do self-improvement and even a smaller subsection takes the time to properly learn attraction and even a smaller portion takes the time to go through the hundreds of interactions it takes to get competent with attracting women. The percentage of men who goes through all of this is so small it completely defeats the "if the guys got game argument"

[RendHeaven]

14 minutes ago, integral said:

Who cares? Not sure why authenticity matters? Its just a limiting belief. If you grew up in a small village with average women with no media training your sexual vision, then average women would attract you 100%. There is nothing authentic about you. Its programming that should be unlearned.  

Disagree.

I had strong preferences from age 2 or 3. I remember as a toddler noticing how some faces were just so much nicer than others (nobody taught me to make this distinction). I remember quietly ranking my babysitters by how innately pulled I was to their face, and I didn't even know I had a dick back then.

So, you're right that it's "programming." But you're wrong that it's a purely arbitrary external programming that has nothing to do with my honest interaction with the world. It's more of a self-programming as I studied what I gravitated towards and what I don't gravitate towards. Now, my dick gets rock hard for the appearances of some women and not others. This is the case just looking at pictures. How is that inauthentic?

You're lying if you say you don't make a similar distinction yourself. There's no way you get hard for the visual appearance of any woman indiscriminately, unless maybe you're so enlightened that you've eviscerated all personal preference.

I'm not claiming that all men share exactly my preferences. But I AM claiming that all men HAVE A PREFERENCE one way or another (and many of these preferences vaguely overlap), and that alone dooms some women in a way that men are not.

I'm assuming you're a straight dude? If so, can you truly with a straight face say that the way she looks has no effect on your attraction whatsoever? If her soul is just right, you'll get hard for her and desire her regardless of her exterior?

If you say yes to these questions, know that you're in the minority of men.

[RendHeaven]

31 minutes ago, Bando said:

Attraction is a brutal game but I disagree with OP original position. Women have it easier than men attracting possible mates and there is no debate about this.

If a woman does the bare minimum self improvement, diet, workout, self-care, make-up she can turn herself into someone who can get options, (not including learning to be more feminine and develop a charming personality). Doesn't mean she will attract all men or even high quality men but she will attract more men than a "regular guy"

I see people saying things along the line of "if the average guy learns game he can get better options than most average women" and while this is true its not the full picture. Most guys don't do self-improvement and even a smaller subsection takes the time to properly learn attraction and even a smaller portion takes the time to go through the hundreds of interactions it takes to get competent with attracting women. The percentage of men who goes through all of this is so small it completely defeats the "if the guys got game argument"

You're probably right when considering the whole group of straight men/women collectively.

Nonetheless, even you admit the difference in attraction strategy: i.e. women focus primarily on improving looks while men focus primarily on improving social skills (and of course vice versa secondarily). I'm just doing my best to notice the ramifications of these different attraction strategies.

Like it's finally dawning on me why our society is so looks-obsessed, especially in women. It's literally a matter of whether or not you're accepted. You would think, "well just accept everyone then!" but that's not how my dick works. I'm selfish. Gosh, this is fucked.

It's really interesting to me how half of the replies here are mostly in denial of the difference in attraction strategy. If we can manage to agree on that difference of attraction strategy, we're more free to speculate about how that impacts survival. I think you have a fair take

[integral]

@RendHeaven Yes, in elementary i had the standard crushs on the hot girls in class. Had nothing to do with there personalities, they where mean girls... lol

After that heart break i did alot of thinking about what made me attracted to them in the first place. Started experimenting with how my attraction worked. Realized its entirely my imagination and emotions attached to them. If i imagine and associate positive good times with the person im looking at, ill get super attracted to them.  There's a middle step its possible your not aware you've been doing, its responsible for the fixed attraction to hot girls, in this case you associated negative traits on to her and couldnt imagine even touching her... The associations where made as a child and you've lost the power to make new ones. Well thats not true, just need to unlock it again, with some training. 

When i have sex with a women ill associated alot of good energy to them and ill want them again over any other women. Its like the ex-girl friend effect, even if i could be masturbating to a hotter girl, the ex-girl friend or crush is 10x more effective. 

Its about

Just imagine yourself having sex with her, imagine having a great time with lots of fun and positive emotions and you'll be craving that ass. Imagine a romance... fantasize. 

Its the reverse, you imagined a story of not being attracted to her and confused that with "my attraction preferences". Its the story thats creating the preferences not the other way around. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by integral

[integral]

50 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

If her soul is just right, you'll get hard for her and desire her regardless of her exterior

... this is a value i trained vai imagination strong good associations towards, so it will automatically make me want her. 

But this is what has been consciously trained into place. Not sure there is a difference between growth and consciously designing the subconscious mind. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by integral

[StarStruck]

You are overthinking this. 

A regular ok looking girl will have multiple options just by being hot. Men will come at her like bees will come to honey. 

If you are a regular looking guy. This is not the case. Men need EQ to talk to girls. You can look ok but if you can't open your mouth your screwed.

 

On the other hand if you are regular looking girl, just have sexual value will carry you a lot and you would have a big chance of finding a nice guy who can provide and protect. I know some couples like this. The other way around is very rare. 

[RendHeaven]

@integral I appreciate your perspective, I'll contemplate it

[TheSpiritualBunny]

On 17.3.2021 at 5:56 PM, RendHeaven said:

I just recently had an experience where I was talking to this very smart and sweet (but physically unattractive) girl for hours, getting to know her as friends and just really opening up.

At the end of it all, she awkwardly blurts out that she likes me and that she wants to kiss. I immediately decline because she's simply not good looking.

It's been a few days but I've been thinking nonstop about how ruthless yet authentic my reaction was. There was no way in hell that I would consider her in a romantic/sexual light.

But why not?

It strikes me that her personality was perfectly fine. Nothing outstanding, but we shared many interests and she revealed herself to be a deep thinker (which I like in partners). So why was there no doubt in my mind that she's not a romantic/sexual option? 

Well, simply said, looks. They just weren't there. And hence, to the chopping block she goes. In fact, if you took that exact same soul and put it in a sexy face/body, I would of easily said yes.

That's so crazy to me. It's totally cutthroat and yet perfectly honest. In fact, if you asked me (or forced me) to change my preferences to accept this girl as a sexual prospect, THAT would actually be the inauthentic thing to do. If you critiqued me for being shallow or selfish, you'd be critiquing the most congruent aspect of me.

Well, given all this, what the hell was she supposed to do?

It fucks with me even more when I try to put myself in her shoes. She had absolutely no chance. It's actually unfair.

I'm sharing this experience because there seems to be this common misconception that women by virtue of being pretty and having boobies don't even think twice about attracting a guy.

This creates a false dichotomy of "men are the ones that care about attraction, women care more about the non-attraction aspects of dating like depth of connection."

In fact, many men here seem to think that MEN are the ones that have it worse in terms of attraction. 

Really?

It strikes me that as a man, you can always develop your humor, confidence, etc. and make a woman sexually fall for you. Looks matter somewhat, but they are never primary.

As a woman, if you don't got the looks, it's all out of your control. Maybe some guy will sexually settle for you, but you don't get to be a chooser when that guy you really like is hanging out with you. Damn.

At least, this is my current impression based on this recent experience.

Also, I admit that I am assuming that other guys operate the way I do (which may or may not be the case).

I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts.

Looks matter for everyone, not just men. If a women finds a guy attractive, she will put up with much more then if she doesn't. Conficence and humor only works if you aren't completely unattriactive, and attractive guys don't have to be confident or funny to attract women. I know this from experience, asian women find me really attractive because they are into western guys, I have to do barely anything to attract them. I'm socially very awkward and I have aspergers, I had an extremely awkward video call with an asian girl from bumble, and she still was super attracted to me after that.

Also, girls have way more options then guys, I'm sure there are many guys who are interested in her but she isn't interested in them, most guys usually only have one girl interested in them every once in a while. She won't have a problem with finding someone else if she wants to, don't worry. 

Also I can confirm that I also care a lot about looks, I'm sure it's not just you, everyone is like that. There are experiments of tinder profile with a guy who looks like a model, and in the profile he literally says that he molested a child and he still got hundreds of matches. 

[Peter Miklis]

@TheSpiritualBunny yeah, many women find the fact that you have aspherghers "cute", if you are good looking guy, that is. I also happen to have one, so I know from experience. If you're not good looking and have aspherghers, you're regarded as weirdo. Just the way it is.

And yeah, everyone cares about looks to some degree, but don't let that distract you from the fact that personality is also important.

[ertopolice]

On 18/3/2021 at 5:40 PM, The0Self said:

I am accounting for that, which is the only reason for the 7-10 (otherwise it'd be 8-10). Sure, there are perhaps edge cases where the best one could hope for is a 5, but some people just have it really hard. Most women are not in that category, but a 5 is still better than a 2. If a woman with a quite-unattractive face gets the body of a supermodel, she will be at least a 7.

When the body looks so fit it causes guys' heartrates to increase with just a glance at their ass, the "ugly" face will then be far more likely to be perceived with compassion; as "sweet/nice," rather than as "ugly." Some have really poor genetics for beauty standards, but with the trifecta of barbell training (heavy deep squats, press, etc), intermittent fasting, and protein-overfeeding (well over 100g a day absolute minimum), any woman can look more similar to a supermodel than 99 percent of women. It's such a powerful intervention because not many women do it, and it produces a body shape that looks irresistible and almost magical to a man -- takes about 3 years but profound results would be noticed within 3-9 months.

Note to women: about the intermittent fasting... It isn't a required component like the other 2, it just makes dieting so much easier. If you already feel you're too skinny, there's no point in doing the intermittent fasting, as it has absolutely no benefits outside of diet adherence -- it's easier to eat 3 good sized meals (example meal: milk, eggs, potatoes, and veggies until satisfied) at 3, 6, and 9 PM (won't even feel like a diet) than it is to eat 5 tiny meals that leave you in a state of low-grade starvation at all times...

Typical example:

 

Again, that's typical, not special. Went from a 4 (or 5 or whatever one's subjective rating is...) to a 9 like it was nothing.

 

 

Even i support the lifestyle without being obsessed about it, sometimes is not about looks..but in women those lifestyle changes use to boost their self esteem and quickens their personal goals as a result..

Physically let's say i've considered myself a 6-7 when in the eyes of other it's been at least a 8. Issue here. I  did not make the best of it because my inner low self esteem or something+shyness+not feeling the need to this survival thing of attraction.

Some ppl said with my physique+intelectual level i'd get almost any guy i liked but further for the truth...i really struggle to find mentally attractive males for me..

what a dilemma

 

 

[TheSpiritualBunny]

23 hours ago, Peter Miklis said:

@TheSpiritualBunny yeah, many women find the fact that you have aspherghers "cute", if you are good looking guy, that is. I also happen to have one, so I know from experience. If you're not good looking and have aspherghers, you're regarded as weirdo. Just the way it is.

And yeah, everyone cares about looks to some degree, but don't let that distract you from the fact that personality is also important.

The weird thing is for a minority of guys aspergers seems to make their personality really cute and more likable, but for most it makes them less likable, and this is unrelated to looks. I know one guy with aspergers and he is way more likable then most people I know. Also from my experience it also seems to make me more likable, people often have much closer friendships with me. So maybe I didn't makes such a bad impression as I think, not sure.

 

[Adamq8]

It goes both ways and men often say that women have it easier and sometimes women say the same thing.

Ofcourse looks is important but how you act is the biggest thing, ofcourse if someone is " very ugly" tbh feels bad to use the word but, it is much harder to get a shot to show your manners and attitude and confidence, tho ive seen many ugly guys with good looking Girls and likewise good looking guys with less pretty Girls so it is really not a thing carved in stone. 

But nowadays it is oftenly guys you hear about being extremely shallow and just wanting to get laid using some less "attractive" methods in trying to get laid, but ime alot of Girls is the same way.

It is highly individual