Can I do detox on ALA only?

[Eren Eeager]

In the book it is mentioned that DMSA and DMPS synergise ALA and that ALA is the only one capble of going inside cells and into the brain. But I am afraid I t will be dangerous to do it solely? What do you think?

@Leo Gura

[The0Self]

@Eren Eeager You absolutely can do only ALA. It just won't chelate lead. It is the principal chelator of mercury both in and out of the brain, and intra- and extra-cellularly. ALA can be done by itself. DMSA and DMPS are accessories, primarily providing an additional route of elimination as they are excreted through urine whereas ALA is excreted through feces.

[The0Self]

Oh yeah btw... While ALA is the principal chelator of mercury, it will not chelate lead. It only chelates Hg and Fe(III). Also Se and Mn... but those are usually more beneficial than toxic -- you may want to supplement selenium and manganese at some point after taking ALA for a while.

[Eren Eeager]

@The0Self ok got you, thanks.

[The0Self]

@Eren Eeager You're welcome.

[integral]

@The0Self Why take DMSA and DMPS then? 

is the problem taking to much ala at one time? 

What causes the redistribution? Slow bowel movement reabsorption? 

Edited April 3, 2021 by integral

[The0Self]

4 hours ago, integral said:

Why take DMSA and DMPS then?

ALA will only chelate mercury, but it chelates both intracellular (e.g. in the brain, across the blood brain barrier) and extracellular mercury. DMSA chelates both mercury and lead, but only extracellularly as it is neither lipid soluble nor affiliated with any transport proteins. Also, ALA doesn't work as well on organic mercury (methylmercury), but works great for inorganic -- which, given enough time, all organic mercury converts to, but if one doesn't want to wait, they can add in DMSA or DMPS. DMPS looks like it would chelate lead, on paper, but in practice it does not -- it only chelates mercury, but it can be dosed more conveniently than DMSA and has fewer side-effects, though it is quite expensive. It takes much longer to chelate mercury from the brain than from the body, and the only compound capable of this is ALA, so it is the principal mercury chelator, but ALA will not chelate lead. Proper ALA usage can seem to be rather inconvenient; a bit of a hassle, since it must be taken every 3 hours, around the clock, for a bare minimum of 72 hours straight, and preferably 96+ hours.

For completeness, I'll add: There is a fourth chelator -- EDTA, but it only chelates lead, does so less effectively than DMSA, and it depletes zinc. Generally, it should not be used.

4 hours ago, integral said:

is the problem taking to much ala at one time?

No.

4 hours ago, integral said:

What causes the redistribution? Slow bowel movement reabsorption?

No. Only two things cause redistribution:

1. Ingestion of an ineffective/partial (single-thiol) chelator (penicillamine/cysteine) or cilantro/chlorella.

2. Falling blood (and tissue) concentrations of an effective/full (double-thiol) chelator (ALA/DMPS/DMSA). The chelators sport a double thiol group, which acts like a hook and binds to the metal (which situates itself between the 2 thiol groups) far more effectively than compounds with a single thiol group (which pretty much just haphazardly stir the metal around your system). But even this hook-like binding mechanism isn't perfect... When blood levels of the chelator fall after having been elevated (consistently elevated, and for quite a while, if you're chelating properly), the chelator will continue to be excreted... and many of the chelator molecules will have a mercury or lead molecule attached. Well, some of the metal always gets knocked loose from the hook at any point along the way, throughout the whole round, but while chelator blood levels are steady, there's usually a nearby empty chelator molecule ready to scoop-up the free-metal, preventing it from being incorporated into tissues... Well...when there's a dwindling supply or even modest reduction in chelator molecules to scoop-up these knocked-loose metal molecules, these metals will increasingly have nowhere to go but redistributing themselves into your body. It's extremely important to understand this robustly, and visually, because chelating improperly has the potential to concentrate mercury in the brain.

#1 is irrelevant if you're using proper chelators, so let's focus on #2: How does one "prevent" (minimize) redistribution? By minimizing the extent of falling blood concentrations of ALA/DMSA/DMPS. How does one do this? By doing two things:

A. Taking the chelator(s) very frequently -- at least once per each respective compound's half-life. ALA e3h, DMSA e4h, and DMPS e8h... or more frequently, for each.

B. Continuing at this rate for a sufficiently long time (doing sufficiently long rounds/cycles) such that you only let blood levels fall (when you end a round) a small number of times relative to the total amount of time you spend "on-round" with elevated and steady systemic levels of the chelator(s). The bare minimum duration for each round, in order to ensure net-positive healing/damage ratio, is 72 hours, but 96+ hours is superior. For this reason, doing the rounds as long as possible (weeks) is even better, if you can avoid significant side-effects or (in the case of ALA) copper toxicity. ALA causes copper retention, so to somewhat prevent massive buildup, you are advised to take zinc and molybdenum 4 times a day, for a total daily dose of about 30mg zinc and 1000mcg molybdenum. Any time you miss one single dose of a chelator (by more than 30-60 min), chelator concentration has begun to fall significantly, and that round is now OVER -- you need to take a break of at least 3 days, but preferably the amount of time the round lasted for... And if you missed that dose before you had made it to the 72 hour mark...then unfortunately, that round was unsuccessful.

 

Hope that clears some things up for people.

Edited April 3, 2021 by The0Self

[The0Self]

59 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@The0Self whats your profession?

College student, lol

[integral]

1) Why is it stressful on the body? Is it possible to keep taking it for months? 

2) Sounds like the moment the chelator is not available the remaining heavy metals will be redistributed? Is there a proper way to end a round? Would it makes sense when intentionally stopping a round to first stop the ALA intake, but continue DMSA and DMPS, then slowly reduce the dosage? Is this safer? 

3) Would it make sense to use a IV? The solution would contain, ala, dmsa, zinc, molybdenum  in the right dosages for constant steady supply. Avoiding the need to wake up in the middle of the night, or worrying about /missing a dosage? 

4) Does a mercury dialysis machines exist? So to filter the blood only of the released toxins and leave the other nutrients as is? 

 

5) Ala: https://shopvibrantlife.com/products/alpha-lipoic-acid-ala-100mg?_pos=1&_sid=6248804e5&_ss=r

DMSA: https://www.supersmart.com/en/shop/liver-detoxification/dmsa-supplement-0248

Are these products good? Any oversights here? 

 

6)

12.5mg ALA

12.5mg DSMA

8mg zinc

200mcg molybdenum 

Taken every 3 hours together. Is this a effective method? Am i missing anything potential dangerous? 

 

Also thanks for the help, really helpful!

[The0Self]

42 minutes ago, integral said:

Sounds like the moment the chelator is not available the remaining heavy metals will be redistributed? Is there a proper way to end a round? Would it makes sense when intentionally stopping a round to first stop the ALA intake, but continue DMSA and DMPS, then slowly reduce the dosage? Is this safer? 

Good thinking! For instance, you wouldn't want to stop taking DMSA while ALA is still being dosed and elevated at a constant rate, as ALA will be transporting mercury into and out of the brain via the blood brain barrier at any given time, with a slight bias toward getting it out of the brain... but when the DMSA level falls, this would cause a spike in free mercury in the body, whereas the brain would see no change... thus, the bias would shift toward mercury going INTO the brain. Do some research on onibasu to see some anecdotal reports and see what they have to say about it, but just make sure you either stop the ALA first, or stop them at the same time -- never stop DMSA first.

 

42 minutes ago, integral said:

Why is it stressful on the body? Is it possible to keep taking it for months?

Copper toxicity for ALA; oxidative stress for DMSA, specifically. Generally, the problem is with the mercury/lead mobilization itself -- some will be moved around your system, and your system won't like it. I wasn't very toxic so I did fine with at least 2 months at a time, but I've heard of people taking 1mg ALA and they felt like they might have to call 911 they felt so sick.

 

42 minutes ago, integral said:

Would it make sense to use a IV? The solution would contain, ala, dmsa, zinc, molybdenum  in the right dosages for constant steady supply. Avoiding the need to wake up in the middle of the night, or worrying about /missing a dosage? 

Lol, perhaps.

 

42 minutes ago, integral said:

Does a mercury dialysis machines exist? So to filter the blood only of the released toxins and leave the other nutrients as is?

Medicinal chelation is not a very holism-friendly procedure. They don't give a crap about redistribution. They just give you DMSA or EDTA until you're no longer testing above the reference range. Sometimes every 8 hours -- completely inappropriate frequency. "Medicine."

 

42 minutes ago, integral said:

12.5mg ALA

12.5mg DSMA

8mg zinc

200mcg molybdenum 

Taken every 3 hours together. Is this a effective method? Am i missing anything potential dangerous?

Looks good. The molybdenum is perfect. But the zinc is too high. That's 64mg/day. ALA already causes zinc retention, it just causes even worse copper retention, so taking zinc is necessary (causes increased copper excretion via the metallothionein mechanism), but you definitely don't want to exceed 50mg of supplemental zinc per day. 30-50mg/day seems to be a good balance.

Research the Cutler protocol on a site called "onibasu" though. There's more info on there. You may need antioxidants and magnesium from what I remember, though I'm not entirely keen on the rationale behind them specifically (if I'm even remembering correctly that they're indeed included in the protocol).

 

42 minutes ago, integral said:

Also thanks for the help, really helpful!

No problem!

Edited April 3, 2021 by The0Self

[integral]

16 hours ago, The0Self said:

Good thinking! For instance, you wouldn't want to stop taking DMSA while ALA is still being dosed and elevated at a constant rate, as ALA will be transporting mercury into and out of the brain via the blood brain barrier at any given time, with a slight bias toward getting it out of the brain... but when the DMSA level falls, this would cause a spike in free mercury in the body, whereas the brain would see no change... thus, the bias would shift toward mercury going INTO the brain. Do some research on onibasu to see some anecdotal reports and see what they have to say about it, but just make sure you either stop the ALA first, or stop them at the same time -- never stop DMSA first.

But doesn't this mean its better to take ALA with DMSA?  

[Eren Eeager]

@integral yeah it is better to do a compo of three ALA AND DMSA DPSA because they synergise ALA after ALA extract mercury from the brain.

[Michael569]

On 16/03/2021 at 6:03 PM, Eren Eeager said:

In the book it is mentioned that DMSA and DMPS synergise ALA and that ALA is the only one capble of going inside cells and into the brain. But I am afraid I t will be dangerous to do it solely? What do you think?

What makes you think you have a heavy metal toxicity problem? Just curious

What do you base the judgement on? 

[Eren Eeager]

@Michael569  I have OCD. It might be caused by heavy metal toxicity, IDk.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Eren Eeager

[The0Self]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:21 AM, integral said:

But doesn't this mean its better to take ALA with DMSA?  

Not necessarily -- at least not as any sort of safety measure. ALA alone is perfectly fine; DMSA alone is fine; both together will speed up the process. DMSA + DMPS is somewhat redundant so you'd generally just choose one, but both of those together is also fine.

Taking ALA or DMSA on its own without the other is not inherently more dangerous than the combination. The only danger is falling levels of DMSA in the presence of elevated ALA -- causing a spike in free mercury in the body while ALA is moving mercury into and out of the brain. And of course taking the chelator too infrequently and for less than 72 hours straight (preferably 96++ hours) is also harmful.

Edited April 5, 2021 by The0Self

[The0Self]

On 4/3/2021 at 5:00 PM, integral said:

12.5mg ALA

12.5mg DSMA

And you can definitely ramp up the dose quite a bit... Depending on tolerability, of course -- for some, even 1mg is very unpleasant. I started at 10mg of each or so (can't remember exactly) but I eventually ramped up to 600mg ALA + 100mg DMSA e3h, for several weeks at a time. At that level of ALA, you will also need biotin, as ALA depletes that as well.

Edited April 5, 2021 by The0Self

[The0Self]

On 4/4/2021 at 5:31 PM, Michael569 said:

What makes you think you have a heavy metal toxicity problem? Just curious

What do you base the judgement on? 

If you have any unacceptable level of fatigue, brain fog, headache, malaise, or malady of any kind whatsoever, you could easily benefit from chelation, since in a capitalist society, corners will be cut by corporations and some level of lead, arsenic, and mercury will end up in your body -- often not very much, luckily. And it's very difficult to test for toxicity objectively -- hair tests, etc are unreliable and don't reflect bone and brain content.

But... it's a pretty easy test to see if you're toxic: Commit to a 72+ hour (better 96++ hour) cycle of steady ALA dosing e3h. If you feel like you're about to drop dead due to taking a low dose of this simple OTC supplement, congratulations, you have mercury toxicity.

[The0Self]

On 4/3/2021 at 5:00 PM, integral said:

Are these products good? Any oversights here?

The ALA is perfect. The DMSA is probably best obtained through livingsupplements.com, imo.

[The0Self]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:36 AM, Eren Eeager said:

@integral yeah it is better to do a compo of three ALA AND DMSA DPSA because they synergise ALA after ALA extract mercury from the brain.

DMPS and DMSA together is rather redundant. Only need one or the other to be optimal. DMSA does everything DMPS does, and DMPS does not chelate lead. Where DMPS really shines is taking it on its own to chelate mercury for very long periods conveniently (without having to wake up at night to stick to properly frequent dosing), as you can take it as infrequently as every 8 hours, and it has milder side-effects than the other 2 chelators. Though it is way more expensive.

[integral]

@The0Self Thanks for help, going to buy it from that shop.