Psymposia pamphlets against Martin Ball

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Lyubov said:

These dated shamanic rituals carry a lot of risk when it comes to certain people and we need to develop a framework to keep people safe. Shamanic rituals are all good and sacred but we can always try to mitigate potential problems and make them safer. 

Yes, of course.

But there is room for both. There will be shamanic stuff, and there will highly regulated, "official" medical type use of psychedelics. Going after shamanic practitioners is kinda silly in my view. They are just solo dudes. They will never be mainstream. If these PhD's want an "official" therapeutic system, then build it. Martin Ball is irrelevant to that goal.

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course.

But there is room for both. There will be shamanic stuff, and there will highly regulated, "official" medical type use of psychedelics. Going after shamanic practitioners is kinda silly in my view. They are just solo dudes. They will never be mainstream. If these PhD's want an "official" therapeutic system, then build it. Martin Ball is irrelevant to that goal.

I am in between on it. This is the reason stuff gets regulated in the first place. You could apply this logic to any field that involves risk. On one hand I think people should have autonomy with their spiritual practice but on the other that freedom leaves open the potential for abuse. We can't have cowboy shamans (there are far worse than what's being called out on Martin Ball) running around potentially fucking people up in the name of healing or helping someone. Perhaps both systems could coexist at some point but these cowboys really don't have the most sound system for screening, oversight over their practices, and after care. It's more complex and involved than just handwaving them away saying only other hippies are going to them since that isn't always the case. 

[Carl-Richard]

@Lyubov Then again, people have the freedom to fuck themselves over in other ways, like taking life advice from ignorant low consciousness people

[forestfog]

On 16/03/2021 at 9:01 PM, Leo Gura said:

It's sort of funny to me how these "doctors" are deconstructing Martin Ball's practice line by line, as if they were combing through a legal document, when in fact Martin was just some hippie dude in hippie Oregon offering underground illegal shamanic work to other hippies.

The things they say have some merit in that Martin Ball engages in what I consider some weird and unnecessary practices, but what the fuck does one expect when working with an underground hippie shaman doing illegal drugs? Of course it's not going to conform to some strict medical ethical codes. Lol

These "doctors" might as well deconstruct how you and your buddy where sitting on the couch smoking weed and cracking jokes, but there was no consent from signed.

Personally I think the biggest flaw in Martin's approach is that he is smoking the 5-MeO-DMT along with the client. It's much more responsible to trip sit sober. If he was sober he probably wouldn't be doing weird stuff. Two people tripping together can way out of hand as the insanity cross-multiplies.

I agree with your point in general, but I wonder makes you describe Martin as "just some hippie dude" doing "shamanic work"? Is this some rhetorical expression or you genuinely think these are accurate definitions? Martin has deconstructed the shamanic paradigm in the psychedelic scene and many people dislike him because of this. Also hard to see Martin as a hippie. In your interview with him, you seemed to respect his experience and views about 5-MeO. That video seems to be one of the most watched videos on YT. 

For now the testimonials that have come out from Martins clients have praised his work and how he was very attentive in the session between hits if they didn't want to go further with the experience. 

He certainly did things that might seem weird, but  he explains that taking 5-MeO along with the client was for him enter the same energetic space with the client to perceive more accurately the energetic blockages etc. Do you find this inconceivable?

 

   

[Grateful Dead]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I also listened to his podcasts talking about it and he mentioned that he had sleep issues his entire life but that they recently got much worse.

Do you mean that he said he is a light sleeper?

[Tetcher]

There is some new, sadly after having complained multiple times that psymposia would refuse to debate with him on a podcast, Martin finally chickened out of a podcast with them as I learned from a reply from Brian Pace (psymposia member as I understand it) to Kerian Perez on the youtube video that I originaly posted. They also claim that they are in touch with people that were made uncomfortable during his sessions (the lack of victims was the main counter argument to their angle of attack).

Also after having made 3 podcasts in a row against psymposia, Martin didn't reply to their new video this week, he just reposted the talk he had with Adeptus Psychonautica that was already available on youtube. He called this last podcast "coming around full circle" so he may never reply to the original video of this thread, we'll see.

[Lyubov]

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

On 3/17/2021 at 8:38 PM, Carl-Richard said:

One thing that has always puzzled me is how chemically similar 5-MeO-DMT (5-Methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine) is to melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine):

   

Melatonin is the chief hormone for regulating the circadian rhythm. During the day, we produce serotonin, but at night, it gets converted to melatonin. Metatonin exists in the retina aswell as in the brain, and it breaks down when exposed to light, which is how your body adjusts its sleep-wake cycle.

Considering the fact that 5-MeO is in a league of its own when it comes to serotonergic activity, it's not really hard to imagine that too much of it could have lasting impact on those systems. This is just pure speculation though.

   No, you're on the right track. My sleeping patterns were disrupted noticeably after using 5-Meo-DMT. Apart from the amazing experience the substance provided, how the substance impacted my sleep is why it's hard for me to retake it for any consistent length of time. 

[Carl-Richard]

23 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard

   No, you're on the right track. My sleeping patterns were disrupted noticeably after using 5-Meo-DMT. Apart from the amazing experience the substance provided, how the substance impacted my sleep is why it's hard for me to retake it for any consistent length of time. 

What time period after taking it are we talking? All psychedelics disrupt sleep for some time.

[Danioover9000]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard

   No, you're on the right track. My sleeping patterns were disrupted noticeably after using 5-Meo-DMT. Apart from the amazing experience the substance provided, how the substance impacted my sleep is why it's hard for me to retake it for any consistent length of time. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

What time period after taking it are we talking? All psychedelics disrupt sleep for some time.

   Sorry, don't want to say anymore that could get me warnings or a ban about my use or where. I'm just saying that this insomnia is related to my psychedelic use.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard

   Sorry, don't want to say anymore that could get me warnings or a ban about my use or where. I'm just saying that this insomnia is related to my psychedelic use.

What?

[Scholar]

On 18.3.2021 at 7:54 AM, Leo Gura said:

 If these PhD's want an "official" therapeutic system, then build it. Martin Ball is irrelevant to that goal.

Isn't that the entire point of MAPS? If what they claim is true that he is somehow seen as an authority and leader who is looked at as a model by many of the pioneers that are to establish said"official" instutitions in the future, then I would say such criticizism probably have their use.

This also has a function of bringing attention and conversation to this issue in general, and makes us contemplate what kind of practices we want to distance ourselves from to be able to establish such "official" systems in the future.

[Breakingthewall]

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Sorry, don't want to say anymore that could get me warnings or a ban about my use or where

Yes or risk having your whole family put into a labor camp. Here many of us use psychedelics and we are very interested in knowing their possible adverse effects, it would be appreciated to complete the information. Martin ball is for me a luminous sign of danger. He says his insomnia is not from using 5 meo, but the reality is that he used loads of 5 meo and completely unusual insomnia occurred. I understand that the same thing could have happened to you with less use since 5 meo violently alters your energy pattern. I think that happened to ball for trying to acquire the energetic form of a completely empty, enlightened being, only with 5 meo, having a mind full of worldly things

[Grateful Dead]

I have been following Martin very closely on this issue because I am also a light sleeper for all my life and I've noticed that 5-MeO fucks alot with my sleep. Like I am sleeping significantly less then normal and it takes much more time to fall asleep but usually I go back to normal after a few days. But I only dipped in my toes so far with this substance.

I've have over a hundred trips with other psychedelics like lsd and shrooms and they never interfered with my sleep.

 

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes or risk having your whole family put into a labor camp. Here many of us use psychedelics and we are very interested in knowing their possible adverse effects, it would be appreciated to complete the information. Martin ball is for me a luminous sign of danger. He says his insomnia is not from using 5 meo, but the reality is that he used loads of 5 meo and completely unusual insomnia occurred. I understand that the same thing could have happened to you with less use since 5 meo violently alters your energy pattern. I think that happened to ball for trying to acquire the energetic form of a completely empty, enlightened being, only with 5 meo, having a mind full of worldly things

1. Each person's mind and body are unique. No matter how universal the effect a psychedelic has, is being filtered by each mind and body differently. Mine adversely affected my sleep cycle.

2. My particular use is different from Martin's, yet I suffered very similar symptoms.

3. My choice and risk assessment in sharing my experience. Remember that they are still illegal for the most part. In the end I have to watch my own back.

4. Can't link the thread on the device I'm using but the user was sharing a psychedelic experience, and it was locked and the user was banned for sharing dangerous combination of psychedelic with a spiritual technique. Reading it through, I do agree, because the user was advocating large doses in combination with other psychedelics with a spiritual technique. I also had a new psychedelic, which is rare and hard to come by, and I too did it in an unusual way, but I decided I would be better off keeping this to myself, until I see other trip reports mentioning this psychedelic.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@acidgoofy

5 hours ago, acidgoofy said:

I have been following Martin very closely on this issue because I am also a light sleeper for all my life and I've noticed that 5-MeO fucks alot with my sleep. Like I am sleeping significantly less then normal and it takes much more time to fall asleep but usually I go back to normal after a few days. But I only dipped in my toes so far with this substance.

I've have over a hundred trips with other psychedelics like lsd and shrooms and they never interfered with my sleep.

 

   This is similar to what I had experienced.

[Breakingthewall]

@Danioover9000 Thanks for the answer. You are right, each person is different. I ve been having trouble sleeping for approx 3 years and they have disappeared since I started doing 5meo. There were blockages that generated anxiety and 5meo has helped to release them. even so I see the danger it can have if you use it for something else: if you are unhappy as a human and want to completely transcend the human with 5meo. I believe this can create a serious energy imbalance that can lead to disturbances. I am not sure about this but it is my impression. I think 5meo is a huge help but you have to do the work, not a substance

[Insane butterfly]

Martin Ball turned 5MeO to a Religion this is why he has problems 

[Carl-Richard]

40 minutes ago, Insane butterfly said:

Martin Ball turned 5MeO to a Religion this is why he has problems 

No what no?