Is Stoicism incompatible with the Absolute lack of Free Will ?

[BlurryBoi]

How can one apply the Dichotomy of Control if "Control" has never existed in the first place ?

 

I've been thinking about it for days, it's kinda  mind bending really.

Stoicism is a powerful way of living, but I feel stuck in some kind of cognitive dissonance right now..

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by BlurryBoi

[Mason Riggle]

The tree naturally grows itself the 'best' way it can, and it does this without 'trying'.  

Consider, is a tree 'controlling' how it grows itself?  Is the 'tree' growing it's trunk and branches and leaves, or is 'the growing of trunks, branches, and leaves' synonymous with 'the tree'.  I think it's the latter.  There is no 'separation' between 'the tree' and 'the growing of trunks, branches, and leaves.' That 'separation' is just an illusion caused by the language we use.  Where is the 'tree' that's growing leaves? Inside the tree somewhere? Aren't 'the leaves' part of 'the tree'? 

Where is the 'you' that's growing your hair? Isn't 'your hair' part of 'you'? 

How hard are you trying to grow your hair? It's effortless. Your hair is growing. How hard are you trying to 'think your thoughts'? It's effortless. Your thoughts are thinking.  How hard are you trying to 'be you'? It's effortless.. you are being you. 

'Control' is an illusion. 

"Stoicism is a powerful way of living, but maybe Taoism is a better way to follow ?" - better/worse are subjective.  Consider, is 'driving as fast as possible without crashing' the 'best' way to drive?  Well, it depends on what your 'subjective' goal is.. are you trying to get to the grocery store, or win a Nascar race?  

What is your goal? How do you know what 'the best' goal is? Who's to say? 
 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[BlurryBoi]

There's a powerful quote from the Oracle in Matrix :

"You didn't come here to make a Choice, you have already made it. You are here to try to understand Why you made it."

Edited March 17, 2021 by BlurryBoi

[Mason Riggle]

Love, Love, Love
Love, Love, Love
Love, Love, Love

There is nothing you can do that can't be done
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
Nothing you can say
But you can learn how to play the game
It's easy

Nothing you can make that can be made
No one who can save that can't be saved
Nothing you can do
But can learn to be you in time
It's easy

All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love, Love
Love Is All You Need

Love, Love, Love
Love, Love, Love
Love, Love, Love

All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love, Love
Love Is All You Need

There's nothing you can know that isn't known
Nothing you can see isn't shown
There's nowhere you can be
That isn't where you're meant to be
It's Easy

All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love
All You Need Is Love, Love
Love Is All You Need 

-McCartney, Lennon

[EnlightenmentBlog]

On 15.03.2021 г. at 2:11 PM, BlurryBoi said:

I've been thinking about it for days, it's kinda  mind bending really.

Stoicism is a powerful way of living, but I feel stuck in some kind of cognitive dissonance right now..

It's a paradox. Control is an illusion, but you can still exert it. There is nobody in control, yet control can be used. You have to admit, that is awesome.

[Mason Riggle]

Human organisms don't have 'free will'.. they have 'intelligent will'.  Take solace in knowing that even though humans don't behave 'freely' (I'm not sure what that would even mean, really.. free from what, exactly? Influences? Conditions? Causes?) , they do behave relatively 'intelligently'.  Lucky us! 

[BlurryBoi]

@EnlightenmentBlog So even tho we can see through it, we can still find power in working/using/playing with the illusion. 

[BlurryBoi]

Its like playing a competitive video game, while still being aware that its just a game. 

[Mason Riggle]

@BlurryBoi it's a game that can only be 'won' by not reaching the end.  The only 'point' or 'prize' of the game, is to play the game. As long you're playing the game, you've already won. 

“The reason you want to be better is the reason why you aren’t, shall I put it like that? We aren’t better because we want to be. Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Because all the do-gooders in the world whether they’re doing good for others or doing it for themselves are troublemakers: on the basis of “kindly let me help you or you will drown,” said the monkey putting the fish safely up a tree. Sometimes doing good to others and even doing good to oneself is amazingly destructive because it’s full of conceit. How do you know what’s good for other people? How do you know what’s good for you? If you say you want to improve then you ought to know what’s good for you, but obviously you don’t because if you did then you would be improved. So, we don’t know. We do not really know how to interfere with the way the world is.” — Alan Watts

[BlurryBoi]

@Mason Riggle whoah.. Embracing confusion and letting go of control is the key, but i don't feel ready to step throught the door.

I like to see Stoicism as a transitional way of living to build better foundations, before going deeper in the rabbit hole.

[The_Truth_Seeker]

Freewill is related to perception. 

[EnlightenmentBlog]

On 17.03.2021 г. at 1:40 PM, BlurryBoi said:

So even tho we can see through it, we can still find power in working/using/playing with the illusion. 

Yep.

[Mason Riggle]

@EnlightenmentBlog how? 

When you say 'control can be used', the word 'can' only means 'has the potential to'... as in 'a car at the bottom of a hill CAN drive to the top'.  But recognize that 'the car' doesn't have a will of it's own, and can not 'cause itself to drive to the top of the hill'. 

We 'can' find power, if and only if conditions are such that we 'do' find power, and conditions in any moment are whatever they are.

You don't choose your next thought any more than you can choose my next words.  'Choosing your thoughts' would require you to think them before you think them.  What 'thought process' would you choose to use to 'choose your next thought?'  How would you choose that? More thought?

Recognize that thoughts arise automatically.. you don't have to 'try to think'... the same way you don't have to 'try to grow your hair'.  

Your hair is growing, automatically. 

Your thoughts are thinking, automatically. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[EnlightenmentBlog]

@Mason Riggle Of course. That's why I said it was a paradox. If you check the meaning of the word, it says the following: "a statement or proposition which, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems logically unacceptable or self-contradictory". 

Self and free will are an illusion. So what? You still chose to engage in debate with a stranger on the internet over everything else you could be doing right now. And I bet you feel like you have control or you wouldn't be here arguing semantics.

[Mason Riggle]

@EnlightenmentBlog I feel like I do what I do, effortlessly.  I don't feel like I have control. 

I'm not 'arguing semantics'.. I'm showing how the language we use creates these so called 'paradoxes'. 

'lack of freedom' can be recognized to be the case at all times, and it is not 'logically unacceptable' or 'self-contradictory'. 

There's no free will.. I don't 'feel like I have free will'... there is no paradox. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[EnlightenmentBlog]

@Mason Riggle Good for you. I thought that OP might understand it best with the paradox explanation. The hardest thing in this forum is replying in a way that people can understand you. You can always write what you know, but then you're repeating stuff to yourself that doesn't do anybody else good. 

On 17.03.2021 г. at 2:58 PM, BlurryBoi said:

whoah.. Embracing confusion and letting go of control is the key, but i don't feel ready to step throught the door.

This advice might actually be counter-productive, depending on the person and his experience.

Edited March 18, 2021 by EnlightenmentBlog

[Mason Riggle]

@EnlightenmentBlog I wasn't giving any advice.  

There is no such things as 'counter-productive'. That too, is an illusion. There is only 'what will happen' or 'what IS happening' or 'what has happened'. 

"We do not really know how to interfere with the way the world is.”

Edited March 19, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[EnlightenmentBlog]

7 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

There is no such things as 'counter-productive'. That too, is an illusion. There is only 'what will happen' or 'what IS happening' or 'what has happened'.

Only from the absolute perspective. Tell that to survival. Survival is a bitch.

[Mason Riggle]

@EnlightenmentBlog Survival for the Lion is Death for the Antelope. 

Tell me, when the Lion eats the Antelope, is that productive, or counter-productive?

[Mu_]

@BlurryBoi   If you still feel like you have will and control and stoicism works for you, then continue to do so.  If and when its naturally seen that control was never needed nor was able, then it will be so, and such questions as this won't be asked.  Trying to not be in control, will only tie you in knots of believing your not there or in control and likely won't serve you.

Side note: neither experience is better, worse or more true than the other, but don't dwell to much on what this means if it doesn't click, its not important.