Simple Question

[DoubleYou]

I've been noticing that the best way for me to make the ego harmless is to see it as the mechanism it is. This way you automatically disidentify with it and you can laugh about it and even love it. Even its destructive ways. 

I think a lot of people are trying to get rid of the ego, but when you do that you are automatically labeling it as something bad which is an egoic thing to do. So thats kind of a paradox you can't avoid. I'm really struggling with this cause I'm noticing the endless judging that comes from this. Judging of judging of judging.

Now, my question is: 
Does enlightenment mean a state of no more ego -or- a permanent disidentification with an ego that's still present?

Thanks 

Edited October 16, 2016 by DoubleYou

[cetus]

11 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

Does enlightenment mean a state of no more ego -or- a permanent disidentification with an ego that's still present?

I'd say disidentification first as seeing through the illusion of ego rendering it null and void, than working toward a state of total eradication over time where consciousness becomes crystal clear (enlightenment).

 

 

[Capethaz]

@DoubleYou If we are using the term "Enlightenment" to refer to Stream-Entry, which is the first path, when it happens you realize that never was a thing called "you" inside your body.

[YoungSeeker]

On 10/16/2016 at 4:00 PM, DoubleYou said:

Does enlightenment mean a state of no more ego -or- a permanent disidentification with an ego that's still present?

That's a good question. I thought about it too. Sometimes I get angry with ego and think I need to fight it as if it's my enemy. Other times I jut accept the ego and it feels like being stronger then when I'm angry. Maybe the key is to accept and in a sense "love" the ego?

[Telepresent]

On 10/16/2016 at 2:00 PM, DoubleYou said:

Now, my question is: 
Does enlightenment mean a state of no more ego -or- a permanent disidentification with an ego that's still present?

Thanks 

6 hours ago, YoungSeeker said:

That's a good question. I thought about it too. Sometimes I get angry with ego and think I need to fight it as if it's my enemy. Other times I jut accept the ego and it feels like being stronger then when I'm angry. Maybe the key is to accept and in a sense "love" the ego?

You know, I'm a bit inconsistent with this forum.  I come and go, chime in like I know everything, and then make apologies for knowing nothing.  But one of the things that really bothers me is that there seems to be this ongoing stream of definition.  All the time people asking 'what does this mean?', 'is this enlightenment?', 'is this true?', 'is enlightenment x or y?'  And you know what I see in all of that?  Attempts at definition.  New models of reality being built with every word.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've done the same thing loads myself, and @YoungSeeker is absolutely right: it is a good question.  But it's a question you have to ask yourself, over and over and over.  You have to pull apart everything that supports that question as even being a question.  Do you have any idea how many assumptions, beliefs, and expectations are holding that question up?  You need to pull every single one of them down.  Stop talking about ego: work out what ego is, and talk about it from your own point of view.  What do you mean by disidentification?  'Not identifying'?  Ok, well what constitutes identifying, then?  And with what?  With ego as you have stripped back and fully understood?  Or with a more vague, undefined idea you carry around that has attached itself to the label 'ego'?

Apologies if this comes off as harsh or rude: it's not intended to.  But I think @DoubleYou starts this thread with a really important idea, but the reliance on an 'answer' to the question asked is ultimately counterproductive.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Telepresent

[YoungSeeker]

5 minutes ago, Telepresent said:

but the reliance on an 'answer' to the question asked is ultimately counterproductive

That's true. But also it helps me personally to ask people what they think. That way I can see that people are going through the same things I'm going through. Motivates me a little bit. But of course finding the answer isn't the key at all. The key is to grasp how wrong it is wanting to get this answer so badly. But you gotta start somewhere. For us, less advanced people, just talking about this stuff, making beliefs out of it is the only way we know. We'll go beyond all that but only when we're ready.

 

13 minutes ago, Telepresent said:

Apologies if this comes off as harsh or rude

it's not at all. we are very open-minded people in here

[Telepresent]

58 minutes ago, YoungSeeker said:

But also it helps me personally to ask people what they think. That way I can see that people are going through the same things I'm going through. Motivates me a little bit. But of course finding the answer isn't the key at all.

Good, great, wonderful!  Probably the only reason I'm so wary about anything that looks like an answer (or an attempt to short-cut to one) is that I've fallen into many belief traps myself, so I hope I can help people avoid the same thing!  Motivation, though, holy mackerel that's the critical factor, and however it works for you dig into it by the bucketful!

58 minutes ago, YoungSeeker said:

The key is to grasp how wrong it is wanting to get this answer so badly.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with you there.  I know where you're coming from, and perhaps when I get 'there' (yes, yes, I know...) I may agree with that statement; but right now I find the fact that I want to KNOW, not believe, not imagine, not create a working model, but to strip fucking everything apart until I KNOW - even if that means tearing apart what I thought I knew yesterday - that's my motivation.  Don't dismiss wanting to know the answer until you KNOW it's 'wrong' to want to know the answer.  Don't take anyone else's word for it.  I'm sure as hell not going to.

58 minutes ago, YoungSeeker said:

But you gotta start somewhere. For us, less advanced people, just talking about this stuff, making beliefs out of it is the only way we know. We'll go beyond all that but only when we're ready.

Huh, that feels really weird to read - probably because I don't feel advanced at all!  But if I come over that way... that's good news for me, I suppose!  Getting on-topic, though, you're absolutely right again: you have to believe before you can not-believe, otherwise you would never do the work necessary to start questioning belief!  I still stand by the idea that - for some, at least - the danger of asking for definitions of enlightenment is that you're digging another pit to fall into at some point, but as long as you keep questioning, questioning, questioning, and you know at some point that pit needs to be addressed, it seems you can't go far wrong

Edited October 18, 2016 by Telepresent

[YoungSeeker]

28 minutes ago, YoungSeeker said:

But you gotta start somewhere. For us, less advanced people, just talking about this stuff, making beliefs out of it is the only way we know. We'll go beyond all that but only when we're ready.

 

7 minutes ago, Telepresent said:

Huh, that feels really weird to read - probably because I don't feel advanced at all!

I just wanted to give some food for your ego But if your ego doesn't want it then you are advanced

[Telepresent]

8 minutes ago, YoungSeeker said:

 

I just wanted to give some food for your ego But if your ego doesn't want it then you are advanced

Screw it - a boy can always eat, even if he has to run laps to burn off the calories...

[Telepresent]

On 10/16/2016 at 2:00 PM, DoubleYou said:

I've been noticing that the best way for me to make the ego harmless is to see it as the mechanism it is. 

Actually, re-reading this: how would you describe the ego mechanism, @DoubleYou?  I always useful to get these things out of my head by writing them down.