Psychedelics vs "Natural" Enlightenment

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Consilience said:

@Leo Gura If enlightenment is a state as you’re suggesting, doesn’t that necessarily mean that some states are not enlightenment?

Yes

99% of humans are in a non-enlightened state. Obviously. Just look at how they act. Like zombies and animals.

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Yet Absolute Truth, if Absolute, must be true regardless of state. How do we come to terms with this contradiction? 

There is no contradiction. Non-enlightened states are still fully Absolute and Truth. The only difference is that the person is not aware of this fact. For example, when you are in dream state at night, you are conscious and you're aware of stuff, but you are usually not aware that you are dreaming. If you become lucid in your dream, now you are aware that you dreaming. But the dream is Truth regardless of whether you are lucid or not.

It's sort of like, you can have cancer, but that doesn't mean you know you have cancer. Think of Truth like hidden cancer. You have it but you don't know you have it until you awaken and realize, "Oh! Of course! Truth was always here the whole time. Why was I so blind?"

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In my experience, state changes are critical for bringing back that which transcends state changes to all states. This question seems to be at the heart of the issue with the whole enlightenment is not a state, vs. it is a state debate.

This issue is easily resolved with null state. The null state is what Buddhist aspire to and hold as the Absolute. The null state is of course Absolute, but it is no more Absolute than non-null states.

When consciousness is totally inactive, totally not dreaming, it enters the null state of pure formlessness. But it is a serious mistake to confuse this null state for "The Truth" or "The Absolute". That is a sneaky bias as now you identify with the null state more than all other states. In fact, the null state is not better than more important than any other state, including the state of total monkey mind.

[Exystem]

@Leo Gura Yes, I am god. But that's the point where I kinda disagree with you (appearently), since to me it seems to be obvious that God doesn't know itself. Knowing can't know itself. There is no-thing to self-referentiate to. Because reality/god is infinite (actual infinity), there's no position to know it from. Being can appear as a god (god-mode,god consciousness, god-state -> a potential infinity so seemingly close to the actual infinity so it feels like that) but can appear as a grasshopper or deluded human as well (a way more limited potential infinity). Being/God is so absolute it doesn't even contain itself, it just is itself, and therefore reality is nothing but infinite partial perspectives, but for no one. No one knows/experiences the whole reality/God, since reality/God is knowing/experiencing. There's no one behind/in relation to it who could ever know it.

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Exystem said:

@Leo Gura Yes, I am god. But that's the point where I kinda disagree with you (appearently), since to me it seems to be obvious that God doesn't know itself.

God can know itself perfectly. It seems like it cannot simply because you have not reached a state of infinite omniscience.

Just think about it? God created the entire universe and all humans and shit. But God cannot know itself? Don't take God for an idiot. God has to know itself otherwise it could not create the universe with such perfect intelligence. God has to be able to see the FULL picture, not just some finite part. God must know everything otherwise it would not be infinite.

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Knowing can't know itself.

Yes it can, because it is itself. Knowing is Being.

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There is no-thing to self-referentiate to.

No thing is necessary. It references itself simply by being itself.

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Because reality/god is infinite (actual infinity), there's no position to know it from.

The position is YOU. The position is Infinity itself. Infinity IS the knowing of itself.

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Being can appear as a god (god-mode,god consciousness, god-state -> a potential infinity so seemingly close to the actual infinity so it feels like that) but can appear as a grasshopper or deluded human as well (a way more limited potential infinity).

Yes

It can appear as anything, since it is unlimited.

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Being/God is so absolute it doesn't even contain itself, it just is itself, and therefore reality is nothing but infinite partial perspectives, but for no one.

Yes, of course. And that is Self-Knowing.

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No one knows/experiences the whole reality/God, since reality/God is knowing/experiencing. There's no one behind/in relation to it who could ever know it.

YOU experience the whole thing! YOU, YOU, YOU! You are fucking God. Not some part of God. THE God. The one and only. The whole of existence revolves around YOU. It all exists for YOU by YOU, since there is no one else it could exist for.

The only problem is that your current state is limited right now so you can't fully see it. You think you are some small part of God. That's not true. You are not God's toenail. YOU ARE GOD fully!

If your state changed a bit, everything I said here would be so perfectly obvious that you would fall on the floor laughing and screaming, "LEO!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!! You fuck!!!!!! OF COURSE!!!!!! I AM GOD!!!!!! What the fuck was I dreaming???? Why did I follow those stupid gurus????? The Buddha is a fucking joke."

God realization goes much deeper than enlightenment But it is still a state of consciousness.

[Exystem]

@Leo Gura Thanks a lot for your time and answer, I'll digest that before responding and contemplate about it for some days or weeks

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Exystem said:

@Leo Gura I'll digest that before responding and contemplate about it for some days or weeks

How wise

[Consilience]

@Leo Gura Thank you good sir ??

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Consilience said:

@Leo Gura Thank you good sir ??

No need to thank me, thank yourself, since I am you

[Keef]

@Leo Gura Did this dream, with all its history and stories, did it exist the moment Keef was born or was it there all along?

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Keef said:

@Leo Gura Did this dream, with all its history and stories, did it exist the moment Keef was born or was it there all along?

Keef having been born IS the dream.

You were not really born. You are imagining you were. The histories and stories are also imagined by you in the present moment. All your memories are imaginary.

Not only is the French Revolution imaginary, even your memory of learning it back in school is imaginary!

You are constantly dreaming, which renders reality as you see it.

[Keef]

@Leo Gura Okay, interesting, i have 1 more question.

before I decided to imagine Keef being born in this reality, where was i ? dreaming different reality?

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Keef said:

@Leo Gura Okay, interesting, i have 1 more question.

before I decided to imagine Keef being born in this reality, where was i ? dreaming different reality?

You're not getting how serious this is.

There was no "before". NOW is all there ever was. "Before" is imaginary.

You were not anywhere because you are always HERE, NOW.

It's a mindfuck for sure. Try to enjoy it

[Hello from Russia]

@Leo Gura Could it be that you just had too much spiritual foundation when you started experimenting with psychedelics? A lot of meditation practice, retreats, contemplation, books about enlightenment, intellectual understanding, better mindset and vision towards a thing -> hence why it might work so goodly for you, while other people without that might have way worse results via psychedelic?

[Ry4n]

22 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

@Leo Gura Could it be that you just had too much spiritual foundation when you started experimenting with psychedelics? A lot of meditation practice, retreats, contemplation, books about enlightenment, intellectual understanding, better mindset and vision towards a thing -> hence why it might work so goodly for you, while other people without that might have way worse results via psychedelic?

As someone who's experienced psychedelics with AND without foundation this cannot be overstated. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hello from Russia said:

@Leo Gura Could it be that you just had too much spiritual foundation when you started experimenting with psychedelics? A lot of meditation practice, retreats, contemplation, books about enlightenment, intellectual understanding, better mindset and vision towards a thing -> hence why it might work so goodly for you, while other people without that might have way worse results via psychedelic?

Certainly that's part of it. But, no, it goes much deeper than that for me.

My brain is literally wired for psychedelics. Any psychedelic is 2-3x more potent for me than other people, and perhaps not just potency but also qualitative differences too. It's hard to compare qualitative differences so I can only speculate there.

Basically any starting dose of psychedelic for me is a crazy breakthrough. 2g of mushrooms, 120ug of LSD, 15mg of 5-MeO-DMT, 70mg of DPT, a few puffs of DMT, etc.

And at higher doses my trips are simply unreal in their strength and holism.

I've friends and others take psychedelics without anything near this reaction. I would say that their reaction is 10x less than mine would be at their dose. Not just less quantitatively but qualitatively.

To be honest, it feels like I was born on this Earth to consume psychedelics. Like God designed my brain specifically for that purpose. You can call that delusional, but I've tripped enough at this point to feel that there is a deep intelligence behind my discovery of psychedelics and I know for a fact that my spiritual journey would be incomplete without them. They were not some side-show or distraction for me. They were CORE to my spiritual growth.

Now, that does not mean you are the same. That may not be true for you.

All of my deepest wisdom came from psychedelics. I know for sure that I could not get it otherwise. Maybe some other people could, but I could not. And in the end I gotta do what works for me. But I suspect it will work for thousands of other people too. But not all people.

[allislove]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To be honest, it feels like I was born on this Earth to consume psychedelics. Like God designed my brain specifically for that purpose. You can call that delusional

I don't care how we call it. You've encouraged at least one person to contemplate the nature of reality, try various techniques (including 5-MeO breakthroughs). And I am sure I am not the only one, there is a lot of people you have helped. Thank you, Leo, for all the content, forum, all your sharing. Much appreciated.

[Enlightenment]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The whole of existence revolves around YOU

Donald Trump agrees

 

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The key point of psychedelics is Absolute Truth. If you don't reach Absolute Truth on psychedelics, you're doing them wrong, or your brain genetics are not suitable for psychedelics.

On day 1 of your latest retreats, you took 5-MeO and it was Total Absolute Truth but then the next day you took it again and you said it was even more Total, and then the next day... So you supposedly experienced Absolute Totality (it felt like it) but then your next day trip invalidated it because it was way more Total. You may say logic doesn't apply there but then you do use logic selectively when it serves you to confirm all that stuff. What if in 10 years new substance comes out and experience on this substance invalidates the truth of 5-MeO experiences? How can you know what you experienced is Absolute Truth if an alien with 10x the size of your brain and different neurochemistry may reach way higher states of consciousness? You know what I mean.  It reminds me of this conversation:

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Kenneth: Yeah. And in fact, I’ve had experiences where I was absolutely sure that’s what was happening. Using the model that I favor now, my slider for self-validation, for certitude, was at ten, and so I felt it, I knew it in my bones: “Oh, I just merged with Godhead.” The reason that I no longer believe that, the reason I’m talking about this as just another experience now, is because I’ve had so many of those experiences. And they’re not all the same; they’re slightly different. So often what happens over a lifetime is you have this union with Godhead experience, and it’s fantastic; it totally changes your life. And then a few years later you have another one, and you go, “Oh, no, this is the real one. The one I had before, which wasn’t quite the same, I was mistaken about that one.” And this keeps going on. So this is similar to the theme we saw before where you keep getting new information and at some point you see the pattern: “Oh, it’s always going to be like this. I’m always going to have a new experience that feels totally real to me but isn’t the same as the old totally real experience. Uh-oh. Maybe my model was wrong. Maybe there isn’t a capital-R Reality light socket that I can plug my fingers into.”

Michael: Yeah, maybe the brain meat of evolved primates isn’t adequate for understanding reality. You know, we didn’t necessarily evolve to know the truth. Who knows? But I agree that you can have awakening experiences or even non-awakening experiences that feel incredibly true: “This is it! I have found it.” And it’s a rock solid feeling of total surety.

Kenneth: And ironically, the one thing that would allow you to continue to believe that for the rest of your life is to never have another one like that.

Michael: That’s right.

Kenneth: Because if you do have another one like that, it’s not going to be quite the same, and now, uh-oh. It’s like the fake ancient Chinese saying, “A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches isn’t sure.”

Michael: Yeah, the second awakening erodes some of the truth of the first and so on. They keep unvalidating or invalidating what came before them.

Kenneth: That’s a delicious cosmic joke, and I like the way you said it. The second awakening invalidates or erodes some of the validity of the first. What a hilarious, delicious irony.

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Spiritual techniques are useful to the extent that they change your neurochemistry

You mean like stuff like dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, etc., or brainwaves? To my knowledge techniques change brainwaves but not neurochemistry

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You experience degrees of consciousness in your own life every day. When you are tired and sleepy your consciousness is less than when you take a cup of coffee.

5-MeO-DMT is like taking 1 million cups of coffee at once.

When you trip on psychedelics do sudden unexpected sounds startle you more, less, or the same as in your sober normal state? I have some hypothesis about the difference in how psychedelics and deep Samatha meditation affects conscious experience but need to take more psychedelics to confirm. 

When I get to effortless attention my awareness is so strong it makes a big difference in how sudden unexpected sounds affect me, it's like I'm always ready, prepared for some loud bomb to blast off yet calmer than ever.

Long term meditators can get to a state where even sound equivalent to a gunshot near the ear don't startle them at all

Edited March 12, 2021 by Enlightenment

[knakoo]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My brain is literally wired for psychedelics. Any psychedelic is 2-3x more potent for me than other people, and perhaps not just potency but also qualitative differences too. It's hard to compare qualitative differences so I can only speculate there.

Basically any starting dose of psychedelic for me is a crazy breakthrough. 2g of mushrooms, 120ug of LSD, 15mg of 5-MeO-DMT, 70mg of DPT, a few puffs of DMT, etc.

You did not have such powerful experiences and sensibility right from the start I suppose ? 

[Inliytened1]

21 hours ago, Exystem said:

@Leo Gura Yes, I am god. But that's the point where I kinda disagree with you (appearently), since to me it seems to be obvious that God doesn't know itself. Knowing can't know itself. There is no-thing to self-referentiate to. 

Its both.  God is Infinity.

[eggopm3]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My brain is literally wired for psychedelics. Any psychedelic is 2-3x more potent for me than other people, and perhaps not just potency but also qualitative differences too. It's hard to compare qualitative differences so I can only speculate there.

Basically any starting dose of psychedelic for me is a crazy breakthrough. 2g of mushrooms, 120ug of LSD, 15mg of 5-MeO-DMT, 70mg of DPT, a few puffs of DMT, etc.

 

Damn It takes like 300ug of LSD for me to even be on the edge of a breakthrough, and even then it's usually only a brief taste.

there is also the factor that some people are just naturally more sensitive. My friend had a breakthrough on 1 and a half grams of mushrooms (it would probably take me at least 3 or 4 depending on potency), but he definitely didn't take to it as a regular spiritual practice or anything whereas I have.

I'm fairly convinced that there would have been no way someone with my brain and body chemistry could have experienced anything remotely close to enlightenment-like experiences without psychedelics. I wasn't even open to that possibility being a real thing that existed before. The structure of my ego as I've come to understand it (so far anyway) is very heavy on putting up barriers and walls between myself and others. That's a pattern that led to a lot of negative shit in my life. Psychedelics are the only thing that reliably breaks down those walls for me and it was such an incredible life-changing relief to discover that. I think that is likely the case for a lot of people out there.

[Inliytened1]

@eggopm3 Extreme suffering works too - but i don't recommend it.