Psychedelics vs "Natural" Enlightenment

[AtheisticNonduality]

@seriousman24 -101010 enlightenment points.

[kieranperez]

All of this utter horse shit. If you’re going to believe that which changes (which presumes “thing-ness”, which is false) is Absolute then there’s nothing else to tell you that you’re utterly deluded by this grandiose powerful states of MIND, because that’s what they are. Enough enlightened people have said over the last half century alone the same damn thing post enlightenment about their psychedelic experiences and it’s the same thing. Post enlightenment for me (which is really just gibberish), which nothing “made it happen”, it was utterly clear that everything that psychedelics dealt with were completely and utterly of the mind, including all interpretation. Your presuming there is someone who is “stuck in a limited state” and that truth realization is dependent. FALSE. WRONG. That which is aware of everything arising (which is also gibberish because that too is based on signifiers and made up distinctions) alone is absolute. Realization is not some state of mind (you call it consciousness but sorry, that’s not consciousness, just the mind). “Ego death” via psychedelics is a temporary break down of constructed character which is made up of A LOT of inner psychic conflicts and manipulations and so forth. However, to presume that THAT is enlightenment is just wrong and utterly silly. God realization is not of an experience, though a powerful experience may or may not arise.

You have nothing to refute the fact you yourself even know teachers (I won’t name any names) that have some 5-MeO and have reported the same thing back. You’re fooling yourself as well as everybody else on here who subscribes to this nonsense. I would bet my life savings that most of the people that would even provide testimonials regarding the “validity” of what you say about psychedelics via their own experience comes down to one thing:

They listen to all this stuff about “reality is imagination” and all this other shit. They take a psychedelic and have some powerful altered state of mind, may have some healing experience (which is great), but then superimpose all this dogma via their own interpretation from what they’ve heard from you. Christians pull the same shit. They pray and have some powerful experience and them interpret it as “I was communing with Jesus” or get into some semi equanimous state and then interpret it as something it wasn’t. Their experience was wrong. Their interpretation was. And it was a relative experience of mind that came and went. Experiences of 5-MeO or psychedelics are not “wrong”. They are experiences that came and go. They are massive subtle or even casual experiences, which are all relative and dualistic and your language even communicates that. 

You're not some unique person for having powerful experiences on psychedelics. Many people have powerful on even 5-MeO and aren’t swayed by the fact that it is still an experience. Many enlightened people have done the same damn things and say the same damn thing: That’s not it. 

All this shit like “they’re immune” and all this blabber is just excuses and self depiction. If you’re gonna believe that every enlightened being (if we’re gonna say there even is such a thing) is just somehow immune or whatever other bullshit, sorry but you’re just being rather convenient and deluding yourself. 

Nothing produces enlightenment, realization, or insight because it’s not something that can or even could be produced because what enlightenment refers to is precise That which has nothing to do with this dualistic relative stuff. Producibility is relative and dualistic, by definition.

Even from the standpoint of states, realization can “take place” while in a gross state, subtle, or causal.

Even if you’re gonna make the argument that “psychedelics aren’t for fools” for not “realizing” what happens to them, you’re presuming egoity, separation, and actually my point that all psychedelic experiences are of the mind. 

Bottom line: Psychedelics ARE NOT truth realization. They produce powerful experiences which can be very helpful, healing, potentially transformative, and also harmful. They deserve and their place when it comes to purification, healing, and so forth. However, the Absolute is not something that’s realized via an experience or state. Psychedelics can help bring what is repressed or “impure” to the fore so there can be purification which can make that which is always ever present and Known that much more “clear” and “obvious”. All insights however are of the mind.  

Edited March 11, 2021 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

I doubt that  5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of Enlightenment, would need someone who tried it before to confirm.  

It gives you way more than the enlightenment any of these teachers have.

I have realized shit on DMT that these spiritual teachers cannot even imagine.

You have to understand that a human's version of enlightenment is such a limited thing. Just try to imagine how much richer of an enlightenment an alien with a brain 5 times that of a human might have.

These teachers will tell you it's all the same and brians don't matter. But that's wrong. They just don't know any better.

[Display_Name]

8 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

I doubt that  5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of Enlightenment, would need someone who tried it before to confirm.  

Ok.

Confirmed.

[Chrisd]

On 10-3-2021 at 4:09 AM, Leo Gura said:

They aren't the same, but share similarities. There are hundreds of different states of awakened consciousness. So you're rolling the dice as to which one you get.

Not all enlightened people have the same state either. Some have radically alien and different states and levels of consciousness.

There really is no such thing as "enlightenment" as a singular thing. There are thousands of different off-shoots of it which are very challenging to understand and map because you'd have to experience them all and you basically can't.

Right, this understanding that there is a singular "enlightenment" just doesn't hold up when you see the differences between descriptions.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, kieranperez said:

If you’re going to believe that which changes is Absolute then there’s nothing else to tell you that you’re utterly deluded

You obviously have not realized that form and formlessness are identical. Your consciousness is not the highest.

Stop listening to these teachers who tell you that nothingness and formlessness is distinct from form.

Everything is Absolute, which means experience is Absolute too.

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Enough enlightened people have said over the last half century alone the same damn thing post enlightenment about their psychedelic experiences and it’s the same thing.

Well, they are wrong.

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it was utterly clear that everything that psychedelics dealt with were completely and utterly of the mind, including all interpretation.

There is nothing but Infinite Mind. So to say that something is "of the mind" is silly. Everything is of the mind. Mind is not limited to thinking stuff or "monkey mind".

This notion of mind as "monkey mind" is a very problematic and incorrect view of Mind.

If you want to shut off the Mind, then you lose your body too, because your body is nothing but Mind. You also lose other humans. And you lose the world. All of that is Mind. If your goal is to shut off Mind, your only choice is to kill yourself. LIFE is MIND! And let's not pretend like life doesn't matter. It matters to you, otherwise you would not be hear talking, trying to persuade people of your ideas.

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Your presuming there is someone who is “stuck in a limited state” and that truth realization is dependent. FALSE. WRONG.

I don't presume that. Nothing exists but myself. All of you are illusions within my own mind. And likewise for you.

Yes, God is stuck in a limited state as a human. This is obvious, otherwise everyone would be awake.

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That which is aware of everything arising alone is absolute.

No, this is wrong. You have created a duality between formlessness and form.

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“Ego death” via psychedelics is a temporary break down of constructed character which is made up of A LOT of inner psychic conflicts and manipulations and so forth. However, to presume that THAT is enlightenment is just wrong and utterly silly.

Psychedelics offer far more than "ego death". Ego death is not even the most important aspect of psychedelics. The most important aspect is the change to one's state of consciousness. And THAT is enlightenment. Whether ego death occurs is not even that relevant.

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God realization is not of an experience, though a powerful experience may or may not arise.

God realization is certainly an experience. I've had it many times. And so have tens of thousands of other humans.

I could talk for hours about all the functions of God, because I have directly experienced many of them.

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You have nothing to refute the fact you yourself even know teachers (I won’t name any names) that have some 5-MeO and have reported the same thing back.

They are wrong.

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You’re fooling yourself as well as everybody else on here who subscribes to this nonsense.

I could say the same about you. Two can play that game.

All of your fave nondual teachers are misleading you to lower states of consciousness.

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They listen to all this stuff about “reality is imagination” and all this other shit. They take a psychedelic and have some powerful altered state of mind, may have some healing experience (which is great), but then superimpose all this dogma via their own interpretation from what they’ve heard from you.

This is absurd to claim. Reality IS imagination. If you don't realize that, you're obvious nowhere near as conscious as you imagine yourself to be.

God and imagination and Love, etc. are not my dogma. And they are not interpretations. Nor are they relative things.

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Christians pull the same shit. They pray and have some powerful experience and them interpret it as “I was communing with Jesus” or get into some semi equanimous state and then interpret it as something it wasn’t. Their experience was wrong. Their interpretation was. And it was a relative experience of mind that came and went.

What I'm talking about is ABSOLUTE INFINITY -- not anything like some Christian's limited vision of Jesus.

There is nothing higher that ABSOLUTE INFINITY. And any teacher who is not stressing INFINITY does not have the highest consciousness. Reality is INFINITY. Period. You cannot get around this with any technique or teach or realization. It will always be INFINITY. Nothing less, nothing more.

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Experiences of 5-MeO or psychedelics are not “wrong”. They are experiences that came and go. They are massive subtle or even casual experiences, which are all relative and dualistic and your language even communicates that. 

No. This is wrong. Psychedelic experiences are as Absolute as Absolute gets.

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You're not some unique person for having powerful experiences on psychedelics.

You don't know that. I'm a pretty unique guy

Psychedelic affect me very uniquely. For example, I get almost no visuals from vaped DMT.

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Many people have powerful on even 5-MeO and aren’t swayed by the fact that it is still an experience. Many enlightened people have done the same damn things and say the same damn thing: That’s not it. 

Well, they are wrong. Remember, psychedelics don't work well on many people. Especially people who dabble in them. I have not met a single enlightened person who as done serious psychedelic work. Most of them have dabbled with a couple of trips. This means they are not qualified to talk about psychedelics, or even enlightenment.

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All this shit like “they’re immune” and all this blabber is just excuses and self depiction. If you’re gonna believe that every enlightened being (if we’re gonna say there even is such a thing) is just somehow immune or whatever other bullshit, sorry but you’re just being rather convenient and deluding yourself.

Being immune is not bullshit. I have personally seen so called enlightened people take DMT, for example, and still not being conscious fully of what things are. And on some people it just doesn't have much effect at all.

It's not even that they are so much immune. They are just dabblers. They take one trip and say that's enough. Talk about self-deception. I've seen enlightened people take a baby dose of 5-MeO-DMT and then pussy out and refuse to take any more, thus remaining ignorant.

Show me an enlightened person who has done breakthrough 100 trips on a wide variety of substances. I have tripped close to 150 times. So I speak from very deep experience on this matter. I'm not just speculating. I'm telling you things that few humans on this planet can fathom.

The next time you talk to an enlightened guru who tells you psychedelics aren't it. Before you listen to him, first ask him: How many trips have you done, and on what substances, at what dosages? This will give you the true reason for their dumb ideas.

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Nothing produces enlightenment, realization, or insight because it’s not something that can or even could be produced

This is wrong. DMT produces enlightenment and beyond.

BTW, DMT is nothing, so it does not contradict your idea that nothing produces enlightenment.

If nothing produces enlightenment, then why do all of your gurus charge you money for retreats and teach you practices for enlightenment? They are obviously full of shit hypocrites. DMT cannot produce enlightenment but a workshop or retreat can? Pure horseshit.

I can generate an full enlightenment in 15 minutes on command. You guru cannot.

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because what enlightenment refers to is precise That which has nothing to do with this dualistic relative stuff. Producibility is relative and dualistic, by definition.

There is nothing dualistic or relative about 5-MeO-DMT.

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Even from the standpoint of states, realization can “take place” while in a gross state, subtle, or causal.

Realization is a state change in consciousness.

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my point that all psychedelic experiences are of the mind. 

Mind is Infinity. So your point is moot.

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Bottom line: Psychedelics ARE NOT truth realization.

False.

I have fully realized Absolute Truth on psychedelics many times. And as far as knowing what Truth is, I know what it is regardless of what state I am in, regardless of whether I am on psychedelics or not. Truth is experience. It's so simple. Truth is NOT nothingness. Although nothingness is also a part of Truth. Experience IS nothingness. They are identical.

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They produce powerful experiences which can be very helpful, healing, potentially transformative, and also harmful. They deserve and their place when it comes to purification, healing, and so forth.

This misrepresents the power of psychedelics. All that is true but it is peanuts. The key point of psychedelics is Absolute Truth. If you don't reach Absolute Truth on psychedelics, you're doing them wrong, or your brain genetics are not suitable for psychedelics.

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However, the Absolute is not something that’s realized via an experience or state.

Wrong.

All states and experiences must be Absolute Truth, otherwise they could be exist and you could not be conscious of them.

For anything to arise in consciousness requires it to be Absolute Truth. Because Truth is just existence. A thing cannot exist and not be True.

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Psychedelics can help bring what is repressed or “impure” to the fore so there can be purification which can make that which is always ever present and Known that much more “clear” and “obvious”. All insights however are of the mind.  

Everything is of the mind, because the only thing that exist is Infinite Mind.

You're making the mistake of diminishing "mind". And ironically, you're doing this using your mind.

Your entire physical body is purely "of the mind". As are all physical objects.

I am conscious that my mind designed my body. Are you? Where do you think your body came from? Who do you think created every hair on your ass? Most of your so-called gurus are not even conscious of self-design, which is why none of them teach it. Self-design is one of these most important realizations you can have. If you call yourself enlightened and you are not conscious of self-design, you are so far from full consciousness. If you are not conscious of how you designed every hair on your ass, you ain't really awake.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Chrisd said:

Right, this understanding that there is a singular "enlightenment" just doesn't hold up when you see the differences between descriptions.

That is the biggest fucking clue.

If enlightenment was truly a singular thing, as many teachers like to claim, then there would be no spiritual warfare. Every highly conscious person would agree. Except the opposite is the case. Hardly any highly conscious people agree with each other. If you study their teachings you will see that they aren't all conscious of the same things. And this is true across all spiritual and mystical and nondual schools. They all disagree with each other, and these disagreements are deeper than mere differences in words or interpretation. These teachers actually reside in different degrees of awakeness. They have different states of consciousness.

If you don't understand this, you will be deeply confused and lost as a student of this work. And you will never reach the highest consciousness.

Most enlightened teachers are not guiding to the highest consciousness possible. Because they don't even know what that is or how to teach getting there. You can't get there through self-inquiry or meditation. You can only get there by changing your neurochemistry.

Human neurochemistry is the only obstacle to Infinite Consciousness. All other obstacles are minor by comparison, and all other obstacles disappear as soon as the right neurochemistry is achieved. And if the right neurochemistry is not achieve, God himself cannot help. You're fucked in low consciousness forever. Spiritual techniques are useful to the extent that they change your neurochemistry. By not tell you this, all your gurus deceive you and themselves. Which is why genetics, nutrition, toxins, and diseases are such important obstacles to awakening. If any of those things are wrong, you will never awaken. Which is true for most people. From person experience with heavy metal toxicity I can tell you straight up that if you have too much heavy metal in your brain, you will never awaken. Your brain functions so poorly you cannot even meditate for 2 minutes.

But hey, maybe Leo is full of shit. Go find out what is true for yourself.

[DecemberFlower]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Human neurochemistry is the only obstacle to Infinite Consciousness. All other obstacles are minor by comparison, and all other obstacles disappear as soon as the right neurochemistry is achieved. And if the right neurochemistry is not achieve, God himself cannot help. You're fucked in low consciousness forever. Spiritual techniques are useful to the extent that they change your neurochemistry. By not tell you this, all your gurus deceive you and themselves.

 

Is it possible to effectively change your neurochemistry for the better?If it is what are the best methods and what are the degrees it can be changed?

[Delis]

@Leo Gura Do you refer the experience of absolute truth as experience where time and space and all things in a way seize to exist and imagination realizes that all of this (reality as a content) is imagined into existence? Or do you include some other qualities to absolute truth? Do you consider love as the absolute intimacy of this kind of experience where everything is realized or noticed to be imagined into existence?

Edited March 11, 2021 by Delis

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, DecemberFlower said:

Is it possible to effectively change your neurochemistry for the better?

Of course!

10 minutes ago, DecemberFlower said:

If it is what are the best methods and what are the degrees it can be changed?

This very much depends on you, your genetics, your specific issues. For example, if you have heavy metals in your brain, chelating those metals out will be one of the biggest permanent boosts to your brain chemistry. But not everyone has that problem, so if you don't have that problem, chelation will be useless for you.

That is just one example.

In general, rigorous spiritual practices like mediation, mantras, and yoga will all change your neuorchemistry if you do them hardcore.

Psychedelics of course are the most powerful way to change neurochemistry, although it doesn't tend to be permanent change. There is a tradeoff between permanence and degree. Permanent changes tend to have much lower degrees of change.

To what degree can it be change is unknown. If someone invents a device that we install in your brain which releases a constant stream of DMT, that will be change so radical it would eclipse all spiritual practices.

[PureRogueQ]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It gives you way more than the enlightenment any of these teachers have.

I have realized shit on DMT that these spiritual teachers cannot even imagine.

You have to understand that a human's version of enlightenment is such a limited thing. Just try to imagine how much richer of an enlightenment an alien with a brain 5 times that of a human might have.

These teachers will tell you it's all the same and brians don't matter. But that's wrong. They just don't know any better.

I never said that Enlightenment is everything, on contrary , I think it is nothing special and it being called highest truth is silly considering how much in incomplete information you can hear from them, not wrong just incomplete , like finding one part of the car and saying it is a car, when you have just a part of it. Still  I do consider it important part in its own right way. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[cetus]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

They aren't the same, but share similarities. There are hundreds of different states of awakened consciousness. So you're rolling the dice as to which one you get.

Not all enlightened people have the same state either. Some have radically alien and different states and levels of consciousness.

There really is no such thing as "enlightenment" as a singular thing. There are thousands of different off-shoots of it which are very challenging to understand and map because you'd have to experience them all and you basically can't.

 Tenth of the Ox herding pictures. "Returning to the market place"  

We are not encumbered by appearances. We adapt freely to high and low places. We find spirituality everywhere.

[Leo Gura]

Of course spirit is everywhere, because it is everything. It's only a matter of how intensely conscious are you of it?

Your visual field is always made out of spirit and it is always Absolute. You just tend to ignore it as you go about survival.

Never forget, the entire visual field is God.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura Rupert Spira once said there are no degrees to consciousness?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura Rupert Spira once said there are no degrees to consciousness?

Nonsense

You experience degrees of consciousness in your own life every day. When you are tired and sleepy your consciousness is less than when you take a cup of coffee.

5-MeO-DMT is like taking 1 million cups of coffee at once.

If psychedelics can teach you one thing it's just how many degrees of consciousness there are. If you trip only once, that will be enough to see that Spira is wrong.

[Exystem]

@Leo Gura Thanks a lot for your posts, I'm glad someone speaks so clear about it, conscious of his own potential self-delusion. I enjoy reading it and feeling the resonance, it's enjoyable to learn from a human with so much epistemological grounding. Most gurus/teachers know shit about that.

[Leo Gura]

@Exystem In the end you gotta validate it all for yourself. Trust no one. When you reach Absolute Truth, you'll know it. When you reach God, you'll know it. When you reach Love, you'll know it. When you reach Infinity, you'll know it.

These things require no human validation. That's the beauty of them. They do not depend on any guru or teacher.

You are Consciousness, You are God, you are Love, you are Infinity, you are ONE, you are Truth, you are Absolute, you are Everything, you are Nothing.

What more is there to say? The rest is hairsplitting.

[Exystem]

In any case! I don't even trust myself, for I don't know what I am, since there is nothing knowable to self-referentiate to, because there is only knowing (experiencing) happening.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Exystem said:

I don't know what I am

You are God dreaming that it is a human.

[Consilience]

@Leo Gura If enlightenment is a state as you’re suggesting, doesn’t that necessarily mean that some states are not enlightenment? Yet Absolute Truth, if Absolute, must be true regardless of state. How do we come to terms with this contradiction? 

In my experience, state changes are critical for bringing back that which transcends state changes to all states. This question seems to be at the heart of the issue with the whole enlightenment is not a state, vs. it is a state debate.