Psychedelics vs "Natural" Enlightenment

[freejoy]

Thank you everyone. I found these post's very interesting.

[PureRogueQ]

17 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

Then you still have ego. People have very different definitions of ego 

5-MeO is not enlightenment, it's ego death or the experience of God you may call it

Enlightenment is a persistent change in your state of consciousness but you still have aversions/cravings and it's not infinite love, unlike 5-MeO.

Even if you want to take a neuroscience perspective, someone on 5-MeO and enlighten person in their "normal" state differs drastically in their brain activity. Enlightenment merges together your default mode network and task-positive network so there is less difference between them but it doesn't necessarily reduce overall brain activity or increase gamma waves

I wouldn't say you have aversions/cravings, you still have your functions, without them you would not be able to function, you know you have to take a shit, if not you would shit yourself and if you are being given option on whatever you want to be hit with hammer on your head or not , you clearly know which is right choice.

Well whatever it is change of state of consciousness is debatable, also depends on how we classify it. 

There is reason why you have such phrases as you are already Enlightened, or it is already in your experience because it is believed to be underlying 

state of your consciousness, ego and all other altered states go over it, that is also reason why some teachings suggest  looking for  this true self in your experience trough various techniques. 

What is interesting is what exactly  is underlying cause of such changes to arise, it is very unclear, because if you could find cause, it would be possible to collapse it at the starting point. 

 

Well you are human, your mind still operates, so ofc you will have activity, people completely misunderstand, well thanks to Gurus contradicting them self and trying to point to different things with same words. 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[Jodistrict]

21 hours ago, kieranperez said:

What is NOT Enlightenment or Absolute:

• Samadhi/Jhana states
• Psychedelic experiences
• Experiences PERIOD
• NDE's
• Siddhi states 
• Kundalini 
• Channeling or Mediumship

Any of the following may or may not arise for you in your experience along the path. I'm not suggesting dismissal of such experiences. I for one advocate strongly for responsible use of psychedelics and responsible exploration of such states and abilities. However, call it for what it is. And if you can't tell the difference, which MANY can't, take note. 

They are in the subconscious which lies between consciousness and source.  They might arise as part of the process of purification.   It is the realm of power and blockage.  The important thing is to use it for growth and not get trapped by the entertainment.   

Edited March 11, 2021 by Jodistrict

[Enlightenment]

6 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

I wouldn't say you have aversions/cravings, you still have your functions, without them you would not be able to function, you know you have to take a shit, if not you would shit yourself and if you are being given option on whatever you want to be hit with hammer on your head or not , you clearly know which is right choice.

Yes, but it goes beyond just knowing whether to choose to be hit with a hammer. If you would shot someone enlighten who hasn't been meditating a crazy amount lately, with 9mm in the knee, I can guarantee you his/her muscles would clench with aversion and there would clearly be an aversion to the experience. You may say well there always would be aversion and muscle clenching to such a radical thing but no, there are temporary states where ego is truly gone where you would not even flinch to 9mm shot to the knee but of course it's not possible to be like that all the time. The problem with discussions like that is people have quite different definitions of what is ego, aversion, desire, etc. ...

 

6 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

What is interesting is what exactly  is underlying cause of such changes to arise, it is very unclear, because if you could find cause, it would be possible to collapse it at the starting point. 

@PureRogueQ Here is my hypothesis about it if you wanna read https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/jz55ce/how_awakening_happens_based_on_what_changes_in/

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

 

Everything he says here is accessible through 5-MeO-DMT, and way more that he doesn't say.

This idea that 5-MeO-DMT does not take you to enlightenment is pure horseshit.

Now, does it make it permanent? No. It is supposed to be a short trip. 5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of enlightenment. That is the promise and that's what it delivers. I'm sick of people misunderstanding and misrepresenting 5-MeO-DMT and other psychedelics as if they are not genuine Absolute Truth and Infinite Consciousness.

There is not a single thing that any meditator or self-inquirer has realized which could not be realized through psychedelics. The only difference is how stable it is. And guess what? Since time is an illusion, the stability of consciousness is totally irrelevant to the fact of consciousness. If you are in an enlightened state for even 10 seconds, it is still Absolute Truth.

Also, no-mind is not at all necessary to experience Absolute Truth or enlightenment. You can experience it with a fully active mind, and that does not diminish Absolute Truth one bit, since mind is part of Absolute Truth.

All these enlightened teachers think they are saying something special, but they are saying basic shit which you can realize by taking 2g of mushrooms. Nothing special about your self-inquiry or Ramana Maharshi or Buddha.

[Leo Gura]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:59 PM, kieranperez said:

What is NOT Enlightenment or Absolute:

• Psychedelic experiences

This is absolutely wrong.

All experiences are Absolute.

If you think the Absolute is even 1 hair's width separate from experience, you're stuck in a duality.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura then why do i not experience my experience as the absolute

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura then why do i not experience my experience as the absolute

Because your current state of consciousness is not conscious enough.

It's that simple. It is not your fault. You can't help it. You are simply in the wrong state. All that needs to happen is for your state to change. As soon as your state changes you will realize that all experience is Absolute. This state-change is awakening/enlightenment/God-realization.

See, these enlightenment teachers are bullshitting you. They cannot give you a clear answer for why you are not conscious of the Absolute. Because they don't understand that it's all just a state. There is nothing but state. The only thing that matters is state. If you are enlightened, it is a state. It might last 10 seconds or 100 years. But it is still a state.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura

if my experience is the absolute then i should experience the absolute no mater my state of consciousness??????

Edited March 11, 2021 by Yali

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura

if my experience is the absolute then i should experience the absolute no mater my state of consciousness??????

No, your assumption is false. You should not.

Absolute Consciousness is so powerful that it can dream lesser states in which it is not conscious of itself as Absolute, even though it still is Absolute.

Infinite Consciousness is capable of modulating itself down to finite consciousness. If it could not do that it would not be infinite.

I keep saying, consciousness is like light. It comes in infinite degrees of brightness. A candle has the same light as the sun, but the sun has much more of it to illuminate reality with. Your current state of consciousness is like a candle. And awakened states of consciousness are like the sun.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura

states change all the time

the absolute NEVER changes.

that's what it means for something to be absolute

????

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Yali

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura

states change all the time

the absolute NEVER changes.

This is also wrong.

The Absolute both never changes and always changes. That duality is fully healed and unified within Absolute Consciousness. But in your present limited state of consciousness it seems to you that change vs not-change is some stable duality.

By definition, nonduality cannot allow such a duality to be absolutely true.

The only thing that doesn't change is change itself.

[Yali]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

The Absolute both never changes and always changes.

now you've got me confused

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Yali said:

now you've got me confused

Good! That's not a bug, that's a feature.

[PureRogueQ]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything he says here is accessible through 5-MeO-DMT, and way more that he doesn't say.

This idea that 5-MeO-DMT does not take you to enlightenment is pure horseshit.

Now, does it make it permanent? No. It is supposed to be a short trip. 5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of enlightenment. That is the promise and that's what it delivers. I'm sick of people misunderstanding and misrepresenting 5-MeO-DMT and other psychedelics as if they are not genuine Absolute Truth and Infinite Consciousness.

There is not a single thing that any meditator or self-inquirer has realized which could not be realized through psychedelics. The only difference is how stable it is. And guess what? Since time is an illusion, the stability of consciousness is totally irrelevant to the fact of consciousness. If you are in an enlightened state for even 10 seconds, it is still Absolute Truth.

Also, no-mind is not at all necessary to experience Absolute Truth or enlightenment. You can experience it with a fully active mind, and that does not diminish Absolute Truth one bit, since mind is part of Absolute Truth.

All these enlightened teachers think they are saying something special, but they are saying basic shit which you can realize by taking 2g of mushrooms. Nothing special about your self-inquiry or Ramana Maharshi or Buddha.

My point was that you have mind after Enlightenment , I don't really care what else he said.

I doubt that  5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of Enlightenment, would need someone who tried it before to confirm.  

[Brenzo2]

21 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

My point was that you have mind after Enlightenment , I don't really care what else he said.

I doubt that  5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of Enlightenment, would need someone who tried it before to confirm.  

Didn't someone just do that? ?... Leo? 

[VeganAwake]

Yes, thoughts still arise after enlightenment, the difference is there is no longer a ME claiming ownership of them. 

"Phenomena are not objectively existent and are only established as existing through subjective destinations and thoughts.... in short, it is said that though there is no phenomenon that is not posited by the mind, whatever the mind posited is not necessarily existent ....if we become familiar with this, the objects viewed --self, other, and so forth-- appear as illusion-like or dream-like falsities, which although not inherently existent, appear to be so"

- Dalai Lama

 

[mmKay]

@Yali consciousness is like a snapchat filter. The experience is one way or another depending the filter you have selected. If you only had the dog face filter your whole life you think it's how stuff really is, and only way it can be.

Untill you learn to swipe to the sides and access other filters ;0

 

Or like a fish that has beeing swimming in water his whole life thinking its the only liquid in existance, an nort even noticing the water at all. 

But then you drop the fish into a pit of acid and he completely melts, and experiences being the whole pit. And then he "survives" And goes back to the water, wondering wtf

Edited March 11, 2021 by mmKay

[freejoy]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything he says here is accessible through 5-MeO-DMT, and way more that he doesn't say.

This idea that 5-MeO-DMT does not take you to enlightenment is pure horseshit.

Now, does it make it permanent? No. It is supposed to be a short trip. 5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of enlightenment. That is the promise and that's what it delivers. I'm sick of people misunderstanding and misrepresenting 5-MeO-DMT and other psychedelics as if they are not genuine Absolute Truth and Infinite Consciousness.

There is not a single thing that any meditator or self-inquirer has realized which could not be realized through psychedelics. The only difference is how stable it is. And guess what? Since time is an illusion, the stability of consciousness is totally irrelevant to the fact of consciousness. If you are in an enlightened state for even 10 seconds, it is still Absolute Truth.

Also, no-mind is not at all necessary to experience Absolute Truth or enlightenment. You can experience it with a fully active mind, and that does not diminish Absolute Truth one bit, since mind is part of Absolute Truth.

All these enlightened teachers think they are saying something special, but they are saying basic shit which you can realize by taking 2g of mushrooms. Nothing special about your self-inquiry or Ramana Maharshi or Buddha.

Thanks Leo.

I thought I found my ace in the hole, I believe I have!

Thank you very much for everything including creating this forum. 

[seriousman24]

Okay guys, I'm actually the only one here in this fourm who has reached enlightenment for real so let me explain it to you:

1 hour ago, mmKay said:

@Yali consciousness is like a snapchat filter. The experience is one way or another depending the filter you have selected. If you only had the dog face filter your whole life you think it's how stuff really is, and only way it can be.

Untill you learn to swipe to the sides and access other filters ;0

 

Or like a fish that has beeing swimming in water his whole life thinking its the only liquid in existance, an nort even noticing the water at all. 

But then you drop the fish into a pit of acid and he completely melts, and experiences being the whole pit. And then he "survives" And goes back to the water, wondering wtf

Yes correct and well said 8/10 levels of enlightenment
 

 

16 minutes ago, freejoy said:

Thanks Leo.

I thought I found my ace in the hole, I believe I have!

Thank you very much for everything including creating this forum. 

1/10 enlightenment points

 

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Yes, thoughts still arise after enlightenment, the difference is there is no longer a ME claiming ownership of them. 

"Phenomena are not objectively existent and are only established as existing through subjective destinations and thoughts.... in short, it is said that though there is no phenomenon that is not posited by the mind, whatever the mind posited is not necessarily existent ....if we become familiar with this, the objects viewed --self, other, and so forth-- appear as illusion-like or dream-like falsities, which although not inherently existent, appear to be so"

- Dalai Lama

 

What the Dalai Lama here says is true but it's kind of mostly completely false and it makes me uncomfortable so 2/10 points for you and 8/10 for Dalai Lama

 

2 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

My point was that you have mind after Enlightenment , I don't really care what else he said.

I doubt that  5-MeO-DMT gives you 60 minutes of Enlightenment, would need someone who tried it before to confirm.  

11/10 you are beyond Enlightenment; that's prestige 1/10 star enlightenment for this display  very elegant