Psychedelics vs "Natural" Enlightenment

[freejoy]

I wonder if one gave 5 MeO to an already Enlightened One would they say it was the same?

 

[Inliytened1]

@freejoy enlightenment is enlightenment.   You can hit God levels of Consciousness to infinity after that, but you are already awake.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Eckhart Tolle said the level of consciousness he had on LSD was basically the same he already had, but 5-MeO is much different.

[Leo Gura]

They aren't the same, but share similarities. There are hundreds of different states of awakened consciousness. So you're rolling the dice as to which one you get.

Not all enlightened people have the same state either. Some have radically alien and different states and levels of consciousness.

There really is no such thing as "enlightenment" as a singular thing. There are thousands of different off-shoots of it which are very challenging to understand and map because you'd have to experience them all and you basically can't.

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There really is no such thing as "enlightenment" as a singular thing. 

Yeah but 99% of the people here haven't even collapsed their own ego into a pure non-dual state.  Becoming/realizing you are Infinity/God is enlightenment.  Come on!

After that you can experience God Consciousness to Infinity if you want

 

[Leo Gura]

56 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yeah but 99% of the people here haven't even collapsed their own ego into a pure non-dual state.

But that is a difficult achievement. Most people experience various mystical states of consciousness long before they achieve that.

And even this thing you call "collapse of ego into pure non-dual state" is not a singular thing. There are many varieties of that.

It's all way more complicated than people want to believe.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And even this thing you call pure non-dual state is not a singular thing.

Infinity is a singularity

 

[PureRogueQ]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that is a difficult achievement. Most people experience various mystical states of consciousness long before they achieve that.

And even this thing you call "collapse of ego into pure non-dual state" is not a singular thing. There are many varieties of that.

It's all way more complicated than people want to believe.

There is actually easy way to see difference between non-dual states and real ego death, in real ego death ego is gone, in non dual states your ego is there , but you are not attached to it, it is like watching movie, but there are many of such states. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by PureRogueQ

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Infinity is a singularity

You are not infinitely conscious. I guarantee it.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

There is actually easy way to see difference between non-dual states and real ego death, in real ego death ego is gone, in non dual states your ego is there

Simply not true.

There are states of consciousness that are so devoid of ego -- which you have not even accessed yet -- in which you could not even have the ability to recall your name.

Just the fact that you can recall your name and where you were born is already proof of a non-fully egoless state.

The bottom line is this: if you were fully conscious, you would not be able to live as a human, so just by the fact that you are walking around and doing stuff, I know you're not fully conscious. You can pretend all you want, but you're fooling yourself.

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not infinitely conscious. I guarantee it.

Of course not.  I wouldn't be talking to myself right now if i were

 

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

There is actually easy way to see difference between non-dual states and real ego death, in real ego death ego is gone, in non dual states your ego is there , but you are not attached to it, it is like watching movie, but there are many of such states. 

They are identical in theory. Ego death = non-dual state.  

in a non-dual state there is only Being which equals Infinity which equals Infinite Understanding which = Infinity.

Infinity = God

[PureRogueQ]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Simply not true.

There are states of consciousness that are so devoid of ego -- which you have not even accessed yet -- in which you could not even have the ability to recall your name.

Just the fact that you can recall your name and where you were born is already proof of a non-fully egoless state.

The bottom line is this: if you were fully conscious, you would not be able to live as a human, so just by the fact that you are walking around and doing stuff, I know you're not fully conscious. You can pretend all you want, but you're fooling yourself.

Well we have different understanding of what ego is, I did not say it is ultimate be it all, it is just that, ego death, you are still human, you still have your body and its memory, although if I would have to compare it is there , on one of top of states I have accessed  and non-dual do not come even close.

I have had such experiences trough meditation, I do not lump real time states with meditation experiences, you forget what you are when you sleep too. 

[VeganAwake]

Enlightenment is not an achievement though...it's the loss of that which believed it needed to find or achieve something.

❤

[PureRogueQ]

Just now, VeganAwake said:

Enlightenment is not an achievement though...it's the loss of that which believed it needed to find or achieve something.

❤

it's the loss of that which believed it needed to find or achieve something, whatever it is achievement or not , or how this state operates , or even if it is something that can't be actually achieved is another question, time will prove me wrong or right. 

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, freejoy said:

I wonder if one gave 5 MeO to an already Enlightened One would they say it was the same?

 

I've met many teachers now that have done 5 MeO post enlightenment and it's always the same answers:

"That's not it."

"Profound state of ignorance."

"Powerful experience, but still relative."

What many of you on this forum fall into the trap of with all these experiences is believing you're mind's interpretation of not just psychedelic experience by any of these experiences. When you have your first kensho, satori, enlightenment, glimpse, whatever you want to call it (which is really just gibberish because there is no "it" at all, and not even that), you'll know. Many of you just flat out cannot tell how much your preconceptions and conditioning (including the conditioning you get regarding Leo). If you go into some trip with preconceptions of God or love or "everything is imagination" and whatever other nonsense you've heard (regardless of who it is or where you got it from) that is just a narrative you give to your experience. I don't know how else to tell you this. 

Many of you on this forum really are just too thick headed to learn from those that made the mistakes (and contributions) during the 60's and 70's. I know a Zen master that was the lead producer and pioneer of LSD that created windowpane LSD that's taken doses as high as 25,000 micrograms. He still looks back and says the same thing: THAT'S. NOT. IT. 

Psychedelics are altered states of mind. Psychedelics broke open human MINDS during the counterculture. They experienced radical subtle and causal states of mind. That IS NOT enlightenment or what Absolute. Where there is one that is experiencing a state, there is ignorance.

If you want an honest experiment where you actually hold your feet to the fire, put your ass on the line and be willing to meet and study with a teacher, have your first glimpse (which is still not something you can do, create, etc. because ultimately it's not something that "happens"), then you'll understand. Or be willing to seek out teachers or individuals that had their powerful psychedelics after realization or bother before and after. 

The experience and state that came and went is dualistic and relative. Powerful 5-MeO and psychedelic experiences are all RELATIVE. Nothing wrong with that nor is there anything ultimately right about them either. They can be profoundly healing and lead to other sorts of doors opening that deal with psychic and paranormal phenomenon and may even clear out a lot of baggage in the mind that can help purify things. They also might lead to this catastrophe of psychedelic and spiritual narcissism and confusing experience with enlightenment. 

What is NOT Enlightenment or Absolute:

• Samadhi/Jhana states
• Psychedelic experiences
• Experiences PERIOD
• NDE's
• Siddhi states 
• Kundalini 
• Channeling or Mediumship

Any of the following may or may not arise for you in your experience along the path. I'm not suggesting dismissal of such experiences. I for one advocate strongly for responsible use of psychedelics and responsible exploration of such states and abilities. However, call it for what it is. And if you can't tell the difference, which MANY can't, take note. 

[VeganAwake]

50 minutes ago, PureRogueQ said:

it's the loss of that which believed it needed to find or achieve something, whatever it is achievement or not , or how this state operates , or even if it is something that can't be actually achieved is another question, time will prove me wrong or right. 

It wasn't directed towards anyone, it was a blanket statement for the entire thread.

Yeah you got it though ?.... it doesn't matter in any way at all. ❤

[Enlightenment]

3 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

you are still human, you still have your body and its memory, although if I would have to compare it is there , on one of top of states I have accessed  and non-dual do not come even close.

I have had such experiences trough meditation, I do not lump real time states with meditation experiences, you forget what you are when you sleep too. 

Then you still have ego. People have very different definitions of ego 

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

I've met many teachers now that have done 5 MeO post enlightenment and it's always the same answers:

"That's not it."

5-MeO is not enlightenment, it's ego death or the experience of God you may call it

Enlightenment is a persistent change in your state of consciousness but you still have aversions/cravings and it's not infinite love, unlike 5-MeO.

Even if you want to take a neuroscience perspective, someone on 5-MeO and enlighten person in their "normal" state differs drastically in their brain activity. Enlightenment merges together your default mode network and task-positive network so there is less difference between them but it doesn't necessarily reduce overall brain activity or increase gamma waves

[Inliytened1]

8 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

 you still have your body and its memory,

If you are not conscious of your leg it ceases to exist.  

[allislove]

11 hours ago, freejoy said:

I wonder if one gave 5 MeO to an already Enlightened One would they say it was the same?

5-MeO helps to bring a radical state of consciousness that may be very helpful but doesn't guarantee to see that:

• you are not a state of consciousness
• you are all states of consciousness

simultaneously.