Free will - does it exist?

[PureRogueQ]

3 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Not nonsense.

Intelligent organisms behave intelligently. They use language. They weigh options. They assess risk. Masters of survival. How cool! 

Can you choose that which does not occur to you to choose? Who chooses what occurs to you? 

Recognize that there are certain thoughts you can't even think because you lack the vocabulary to think them. You think in a language you didn't choose. 

Notice that even as you are reading this, thoughts are arising in your awareness. You are thinking about how to respond perhaps. Maybe other thoughts are arising.. a sound from another room.. did you remember to put the garbage out? 

Where are these thoughts coming from? From your perspective, you have no idea. They merely arise. 

You can't think your thoughts before you think them. Thinking is happening. 

 

Notice that you notice information that feeds your idea of why there is no free will, your organism is indeed intelligent and survival has nothing to do with it , well it can, but you might as well have no survival instincts, you are assume that experienced is pointer to no free will, when it is just experienced. 

[Guest EmptyVase]

5 hours ago, Forestluv said:

For me, that threshold was about 5 seconds of thoughtless gaps. That was long enough to realize that it's actually possible to perceive without thoughts. Then the thoughtless gaps between thoughts turned into their own realms.

I've also noticed, it's not so much the thoughts themselves - it is the mind's relationship with thoughts. Many minds are immersed into thinking - like a person swimming in an ocean. It's not so much the ocean water, it's one's relationship to the ocean water.

I know enter conscious states in which thoughts may appear, yet they aren't thought-ish. Technically, it is a thought - yet in essence it's not a thought. It just becomes part of the experience. A thought may appear, yet it's part of the dance with emotions, sensations, images, intuition, creativity etc. During the experience, the mind isn't even judging what counts as a "thought, there is experience of being prior to that. 

Exactly! You put that really beautiful into words. Your ability to translate these experiences is amazing.

And yes, absolutely. The duality of thought vs. no-thought breaks down within these conscious states of deeper understanding. It doesn't matter whether a thought pops up or not, because it's aaaaall part of it all. Thoughts, seen as a dance of the whole, can't really be judged. They are more of a glory player than an enemy to be fought. A deeper form of surrender you might say.

[Lyubov]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:06 AM, Origins said:

@Lyubov You can will a million dollars. This is what's involved in energetic alignment. Life is an energetic mirror. The way you interpret the contents of this forum is an entire energetic mirror to you. What matters is the pairing between actions with intention, vision and energy. 

In this sense, you can will anything. It's all about alignment. Alignment, alignment, alignment. That's the crux of alchemy in the way I painted it in the context of improving the harnessing of the free will you have.

I guess when you've figured out a way to magically snap your fingers and have a million dollars in cash in front of you let me know 

[Nahm]

@Lyubov

Dreamboard.  Totally works. 

Can’t physically manifest instantly though, but only because you already are. 

 

[freejoy]

Things are here.

Call it imagination, illusion, or virtual.

Let's say it's all illusion, so the illusion would have to be here, it would be real.

The table is there.

Basically we are just seeing colors. There isn't anything outside your room until you go outside. There isn't a brain in your head until you look inside your head.

Also let's say you are God. Things are here. You created them. Therefore God/you willed them into existence.

Something created the "illusion" for it to create the illusion there must be a Will behind the creation.

The illusion is as real as it gets.

Our reality has order and laws in it.

Case soved. : )

 

 

 

 

[Origins]

@Lyubov It depends on what industry you're in as well, to add. Otherwise, a misinterpretation on your part. Best.

4 hours ago, Lyubov said:

I guess when you've figured out a way to magically snap your fingers and have a million dollars in cash in front of you let me know 

 

[Origins]

To bring an end to it (to what I'll write about more at a later date - and at least on my part @illbeyourmirror ):

Firstly, what I’d like to say is after thinking about this subject a little more deeply combined with my own abilities what follows from my reasoning is the following core principles based on variations in free will otherwise known "to have a free will", "to have a will that is free". Free will as I see it is the degree of freedom of our will and our will is just the power of our awareness. Lastly before proceeding, I welcome well thought out critique and questioning and will respond only according to that criterion:

• Compassion 
• Empathy
• Understanding 
• Integrity
• And ass kicking (when you’re talking about people who know better - aka Justice, Responsibility, Honour)

Where I believe most people are confused is in the following:

1. Free will is a capacity that has limits in the moment thus not a given in the moment depending on the stressors of the environment. This is the same as saying that free will has computational resilience but not situational resilience where said corresponding environmental variables supersede those corresponding awareness constraints, the latter here making free will a more or less binding contract with the universe up until and not beyond those limits. To this end we should have compassion, empathy and intelligent boundaries enforced to provide a safety net for our own limitations. But as much as we need to see our limitations we ought to see our abilities as well, we can’t have disempowerment without empowerment when you have an awareness that’s capable and therefore empowered enough to perceive any disempowerment that comes from any supposed lack of free will.
    
2. Moving back to the point on awareness free will is therefore isomorphic to awareness, so if you aren’t aware of your thoughts and emotions you ARE your thoughts and emotions to that degree and no less
    
3. Free will is separate from the will of thoughts and emotions, that’s what makes it free.
    
4. Free will is related to but otherwise completely distinct from will power, you can have the will to power In the context of advancing your awareness and therefore your free will overtime but your free will is limited by your level of awareness in the moment irrespective of how much will power you have. Free will is also related to but distinct from self control, self control controls it doesn’t become aware. Self control and will power are also related but distinct constructs, this is a separate topic. It is also separate to intelligence, intelligence just sees, doesn’t mean it’s aware though. You have to use intelligence to become aware and therefore have free will. Though free will would of course not function without intelligence, this is the same too concerning zero self control and will power even though these are all related but distinct constructs. Intelligence enhances your choices, but not in the same way that simply awareness does. Lastly to this end of comparison, free will is also not an energy, rather free will requires energy. This may have esoteric and spiritual origins and ramifications, simple biological origins and ramification or whats more likely is that it’s a bit of both.
    
5. Free will has a developmental trajectory and a species bias, babies have less free will than adults just as dogs have less free will than most humans. 
    
6. Thus free will is subject to change over and within time and is therefore positively sensitive to training measures as well as activities and behaviours that reduce free will, from alcohol to chewing cigarette ash as gum day to day. To the former, we have meditation, we have releasing energies from our body, eating better, exercise, etc, etc the list goes on and on

If we don’t distinguish we won’t extinguish (falsity).

Finally, do zombies have free will? Yes but much, much less. It’s negligible at best.

Do some humans exhibit zombie like brain characteristics? Yes.

Does this mean humans vary in their level of free will? Yes, absolutely.

Just like you don’t have a second thought about whether people have muscle on their body, it’s the same with free will. The question is simply, how much not do they or don’t they. 

The discussion then is about quantity not quality, the quality exists, what people struggle with is differentiating beyond that point to arrive on the road where they’re now reflecting on differences concerning quantity.

On amount of free will money, are you broke (zombie), middle class (Labrador) or rich (spectrum of rich concerning the human species)?

Finally with respect to thought and emotion, not all thoughts and emotions are created equal, we have a full spectrum of both thoughts and emotions that vary in both quantitative and qualitative elements. From various forms of intuition  to spiritual phenomena, thus using arguments like “well you can’t control the next thought that comes into your head” etc is a highly truncated way of parsing thought, free will and awareness altogether.

Eventually determinists will be proven wrong and I’ll be proven more right than wrong on this subject. Get on the right side of the fence, focus on improving your awareness and forget rolling around in the mindless mud of subjects like these perpetrated by aimless trolls unless it’s serving said growth.

Notice that I haven’t at all needed to go into quantum mechanics and other new age misinterpretations to give a fair and just argument for free will, I’ve simply drawn very sensible inferences that anyone could with a basic knowledge of their own awareness and general cognition. This isn’t to say that quantum mechanics doesn’t have something interesting to say, it’s that I’ve seen no use to add it to discussion especially when most interpretations there have been misappropriated by mainstream culture.

Lastly, again I invite any sincere critiques to what I’ve briefly put forward here regarding what will is a preliminary introduction to what I’ll write up on and share so I can serve it up to future people I spot spreading misinformation on the subject here and elsewhere. Mudslinging made of gold signing off (most likely but who knows) now, final nail in this "only zombies have no free will" coffin.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Origins

[Lyubov]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Lyubov

Dreamboard.  Totally works. 

Can’t physically manifest instantly though, but only because you already are. 

 

Have a lovely one I printed out. I'm not holding my breathe but I like how it makes me creative and it fills me with good feels so even if I don't get it materially I think it will come in some form symbolically. 

[AdamR95]

1 hour ago, Origins said:

Free will is a capacity that has limits in the moment

On 10. 3. 2021 at 7:42 AM, Origins said:

the lack of mechanics beyond comprehension

@Origins Does this imply free will is limited in the present moment by mechanics that are within comprehension?

Why do i sometimes do things that i dont know why i do, inst it because of some kind of hiden mechanics beyond comprehension? In the case when i know the "why" inst the "why" only story i tell to myself?

[Origins]

@AdamR95 Move on from quoting me please Adam (I've given you enough of my time). I've asked you more than once now. Thank you, all the best.

[Mason Riggle]

11 hours ago, PureRogueQ said:

Notice that you notice information that feeds your idea of why there is no free will, your organism is indeed intelligent and survival has nothing to do with it , well it can, but you might as well have no survival instincts, you are assume that experienced is pointer to no free will, when it is just experienced. 

 

Those are certainly all words.

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Have a lovely one I printed out. I'm not holding my breathe but I like how it makes me creative and it fills me with good feels so even if I don't get it materially I think it will come in some form symbolically. 

Awesome, but also, ‘you’ don’t / won’t ‘get it’, you’ll literally become it. Try it and see. Let all resistant thoughts and feelings go / know how to & raise your vibration. .

[neovox]

My current experience says "yes" I am experiencing what seems to feel like "free will", or doing what I choose. But is it really "my" choice if there is no "me"? There's an appearance of free will/ choice in order evolve. You  suffer through the resistance  and "choices" that you create  and internalize  experiences. In a relative sense yes there seems to feel like a free will for most of us.  Though, a deeper absolute experience free will is clearly an illusion rooted in my sense of self. It is all God there is nothing choose from or between, it's all there, divine, perfect, and there is no other way for it to be. How could there be choice?.. In heighten states of consciousness concepts of control, choice, free will, and a separate self dissolve. Each choice isn't my isolated choice but connected to everything that is. The interpretation of the experience is not of "my" free will but of awe and  being... the divine, Intelligent Will that I am. 

[AcaciaConfusa]

If free will does imply that one is able to make a decision, so i would say, the more conscious you are, the more possibilities you have.

 

 

[Mason Riggle]

Challenge: Think something other than what you are about to think about. Do something other than what you are about to do. 

Any attempt to 'be other than how you are' is just more 'being how you are'. 

Notions of 'free will' are nothing more than 'word/concept' games.  It's the bizarre notion that things can occur 'other than how they are occurring'. 

If you think you are 'controlling what you do', recognize that 'controlling what you do' is just more 'what you are doing'.. who is controlling the 'you' who is controlling you? 

People are confused by language.. when we say, for example, 'I am thinking my thoughts'.. this brings about notions of a 'doer' who 'does things'.. but notice that when we say, 'I am growing my hair', it's easily recognized that what is actually happening, is that 'hair is growing', and there isn't a 'doer' who's 'doing it'.  Organism grow hair. Organisms think thoughts. But there is no 'controller' somewhere inside the organism 'controlling' how it does those things.  Organisms are 'how they are' and they never have to 'try to be how they are', because 'trying to be how they are' or 'trying not to be how they are' are both just more 'being how they are'. 

There is no 'doing'.. only 'being.  And you are ALWAYS 'being how you are', effortlessly.