Free will - does it exist?

[Origins]

@Lyubov You can will a million dollars. This is what's involved in energetic alignment. Life is an energetic mirror. The way you interpret the contents of this forum is an entire energetic mirror to you. What matters is the pairing between actions with intention, vision and energy. 

In this sense, you can will anything. It's all about alignment. Alignment, alignment, alignment. That's the crux of alchemy in the way I painted it in the context of improving the harnessing of the free will you have.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins

[AdamR95]

32 minutes ago, Origins said:

@Lyubov You can will a million dollars. This is what's involved in energetic alignment. Life is an energetic mirror. The way you interpret the contents of this forum is an entire energetic mirror to you. What matters is the pairing between actions with intention, vision and energy. 

In this sense, you can will anything. It's all about alignment. Alignment, alignment, alignment. That's the crux of alchemy in the way I painted it in the context of improving the harnessing of the free will you have.

@illbeyourmirror this is not true.

Reality contradicts what ego wishes and visualizes all the time. What you visualize is more probable to happen but you still have zero control about it because you dont even control your thoughs in the first place.

Edited March 11, 2021 by AdamR95

[Origins]

@AdamR95

5 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

@illbeyourmirror this is not true.

Reality contradicts what ego wishes and visualizes all the time. What you visualize is more probable to happen but you still have zero control about it because you dont even control your thoughs in the first place.

You haven't stated how its not true. You've simply stated that reality contradicts the ego. 

If you want to refute my text, please refute it, furthermore, avoid needing your ego to take ownership of another persons perceptions of my text. This is reality contradicting your ego right now.

 

[James123]

@illbeyourmirror from perspective of ego, it does exist.

From the ultimate it doesn’t. Because there is nobody and no body. 

[AdamR95]

23 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95

You haven't stated how its not true. You've simply stated that reality contradicts the ego. 

 

@Origins Because you cant control your thoughts, that is something i cant prove to you, you can only prove to yourself.

27 minutes ago, Origins said:

This is reality contradicting your ego right now.

@Origins Exactly! If my ego has control over the situation then i can vizualize into reality that you understand what i have said. But you dont, thats example reality contradicting what my ego wants.

But from gods perspective this is fine, god wants to argue with itself from milions of perspectives and my ego has no choise about it, do you see it now? 

And ofcourse i can be totaly wrong, because i am limited and i am talking from my limited experience. But dont think you know it better, think it throught and then see if i am wrong.

[Someone here]

 

Sit down and try to stop your thoughts for 30 seconds.  You can't. 

 

Who is this "you" that has free will or has no free will?.. If it's nonexistent then there is no question left.    Now don't get this wrong.. Obviously you appear to be a this body or somehow an entity inside this body looking at the world.  And this will continue to be the apparent experience.   But it's not actually the case. 

I don't like abstract theoretical approach.. Especially to this question of free will it took me a long time to get in terms with it.   You can practically figure out the defentive answer to the free will question.. once and for all.   Just sit down and try to completely still your body..that means no thoughts no actions no internal or external movements.. You will quickly discover that you can't.  The body will do something automatically. A thought will arise. A feeling. A movement. A tingle. A blink.  A breath.  Etc.   That's it the body is just running automatically. There is no separate agency creating this. 

[Origins]

@AdamR95

24 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

@Origins Because you cant control your thoughts, that is something i cant prove to you, you can only prove to yourself.

@Origins Exactly! If my ego has control over the situation then i can vizualize into reality that you understand what i have said. But you dont, thats example reality contradicting what my ego wants.

But from gods perspective this is fine, god wants to argue with itself from milions of perspectives and my ego has no choise about it, do you see it now? 

And ofcourse i can be totaly wrong, because i am limited and i am talking from my limited experience. But dont think you know it better, think it throught and then see if i am wrong.

Adam, a thought I recommend you have as opposed to just mindlessly interrupting my flow here is going back to my initial assessments and addressing them directly as opposed to trying to stop me mid-stream here. If you want me to entertain you in discussion, you'll need to show that you've entertained my initial assessments and have refuted them well or done something else at least to warrant further discussion with you otherwise I'm just simply not interested.

[AdamR95]

4 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95

Adam, a thought I recommend you have as opposed to just mindlessly interrupting my flow here is going back to my initial assessments and addressing them directly as opposed to trying to stop me mid-stream here. If you want me to entertain you in discussion, you'll need to show that you've entertained my initial assessments and have refuted them well or done something else at least to warrant further discussion with you otherwise I'm just simply not interested.

@Origins  i am addressing them directly. You just dont see the connection. Your whole theory assume you can control something and that is not true. Therefore you cannot manifest anything you want. You can sometimes experience something manifesting through your vizualization but you ignore the cases when it isnt manifesting. That is comfirmation bias, you only see cases when it works. And more importantly you ignore that you are not the one who is vizualizing. The vizualization is happening but you are not doing it.

You can refuse my point of view but then you miss the value it can give you if you dare to contemplate it.

My assumption is that you dont want to contemplate it because it completely undermines your pet theory. You want me to discuss within the theory but i am saying the theory is delusional in the first place.

[nistake]

[Origins]

18 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

@Origins  i am addressing them directly. You just dont see the connection. Your whole theory assume you can control something and that is not true. Therefore you cannot manifest anything you want. You can sometimes experience something manifesting through your vizualization but you ignore the cases when it isnt manifesting. That is comfirmation bias, you only see cases when it works. And more importantly you ignore that you are not the one who is vizualizing. The vizualization is happening but you are not doing it.

You can refuse my point of view but then you miss the value it can give you if you dare to contemplate it.

My assumption is that you dont want to contemplate it because it completely undermines your pet theory. You want me to discuss within the theory but i am saying the theory is delusional in the first place.

@AdamR95 Interesting. Just looks like you want attention. You made a claim "I am addressing them directly", however I see zero quoted text of my original arguments in this thread comment by comment.

If you want attention. Fuck off. 

If you want to add value. Let's talk and adhere to my requests if you want me to sincerely participate further.

[AdamR95]

8 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95 Interesting. Just looks like you want attention. You made a claim "I am addressing them directly", however I see zero quoted text of my original arguments in this thread comment by comment.

If you want attention. Fuck off. 

If you want to add value. Let's talk and adhere to my requests if you want me to sincerely participate further.

@Origins  There is value, you dont want to see it. I have good intention, i give you another perspective but you refuse it, its ok though.

 

2 hours ago, Origins said:

@Lyubov You can will a million dollars. This is what's involved in energetic alignment. Life is an energetic mirror. The way you interpret the contents of this forum is an entire energetic mirror to you. What matters is the pairing between actions with intention, vision and energy. 

This assume that your ego has control over your actions, intentions, visions and energy. But it isnt the case. Vizualization has some power but has limitation too. And ultimatly it  is not you who is doing the vizualization.

How more direct i can be?

I had same thinking as you before but when i tested that through direct experience i discovered i was delusional. 

[Origins]

4 hours ago, Origins said:

@illbeyourmirror 

It's better to work in a step by step debunking (of determinism) and bottom up sense so that any model I put forward is more readily accepted if that's okay plus its a more useful investment of my time.

Moreover there's no need to have any model of the larger universe to accept free will as it is as some people have affirmed, with or without the declaration that you're on in the same the same fact remains. It's the same as knowing your alive, you don't need verification that anything outside of you or the larger universe is alive in order to validate your own perception of your "aliveness" as the definition affords.

Can you distinguish between thought and your awareness?

Can you distinguish between thought and emotion with your awareness?

Can you distinguish between your energy and all of the above?

There is a reason why its called "free will" which is often a confusing subject for most people. It is not that "you are free from causality", it is that you have the power to be free relative to said power and that power describes your relative freedom of will. Let's take this one step at a time and please ask insightful questions for clarification, elaboration and greater differentiation.

Moreover I invite anyone here or elsewhere to intelligently retort up until they've correctly identified what it is that I'm trying to say and their ability to refute it.

One step at a time... Slowly restoring intelligence to the subject.

 

 

There you are @AdamR95, you're obviously struggling to follow my instructions so I'll be a little nicer to you by linking it myself as you may be struggling from something I'm unaware of.

Give it your best shot! We'll take it one step at a time. Let's see how you go.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins

[AdamR95]

25 minutes ago, Origins said:

 

 

There you are @AdamR95, you're obviously struggling to follow my instructions so I'll be a little nicer to you by linking it myself as you may be struggling from something I'm unaware of.

Give it your best shot! We'll take it one step at a time. Let's see how you go.

@Origins

Ok i overlooled that comment. The argument is that awarness is a different thing than thinking, am i right?

But that is irelevant. Your pure awarness is free but you not control your awarness. Pure awarness is god but you have no control over god, god has control over you.

You have free will in a sence that you are god, but that doesnt give a power to your ego. What happens... happens and ego has no choise about it.

And if you live from gods point of view then free will lose its meaning completly. As god you already made everything the way it is, nothing can change it. Free will makes sence only from egos perspective. Its ilusion.

Edited March 11, 2021 by AdamR95

[Origins]

@AdamR95 Do you put it in the realm of possibility that if you overlooked something as simple as my initial foundation put forward to this thread along with repeated requests to address said foundation that you may still be overlooking something in your views here?

Do you think it may be a high probability or a low probability?

What has changed for that to somehow be a low probability?

Do you have an open mind as it concerns taking in new perspectives here or are you just looking to ram your perspectives down other peoples throat without any kind of awareness?

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Sit down and try to stop your thoughts for 30 seconds.  You can't. 

Experiencing thoughtless domains for over 30s is attainable after some practice. Much longer periods are possible. Ime, it’s an important area of consciousness work.

[AdamR95]

4 minutes ago, Origins said:

@AdamR95

Do you have an open mind as it concerns taking in new perspectives here or are you just looking to ram your perspectives down other peoples throat without any kind of awareness?

i Know i am pushing my view a little too much. I know i am not humble in these conversations, i am full of my ego and i am aware of it.

But i think i know something you may be missing and i want to point it out. Im taking into account others point of view too and i am able to change my mind as i did many times in the past.

And free will is one of the point of view i needed to let go of because i saw its delusion. And i am still open to change my mind but there were no arguments to this topic that i dont take into account already in the past.

In this topic i prove to myself many times that free will is something that cant exist. Same way that round square cant exist. Its obvious on so many leves if you are conciouss enough. Its literaly more certain then the sun will rise tomorow.

[Guest EmptyVase]

15 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Experiencing thoughtless domains for over 30s is attainable after some practice. Much longer periods are possible. Ime, it’s an important area of consciousness work.

I find that once a certain threshold is reached, longer periods require less and less effort. Involuntarily 'snapping back from the void' into thought realm happens rather random ime, though the degree of 'involuntarilesseness' is also a matter of practice. So much for free will.

[AdamR95]

@Origins And it depends on the definiton too.

So if you define free will as a feeling of making a choise then that is real, in that case free will exist. But it doesnt change the fact that it is an ilusion.

Edited March 11, 2021 by AdamR95

[Someone here]

31 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Experiencing thoughtless domains for over 30s is attainable after some practice. Much longer periods are possible. Ime, it’s an important area of consciousness work.

Maybe.. But my point is still valid. That thoughts are naturally occurring without an agency (there is no thinker thinking them).  And this can be realized by observing thoughts and actions. When it's recognized there is no 'doer' and everything happens by itself.. The whole question falls away. 

 

[Origins]

@AdamR95 You're a very logically oriented person Adam, which is good, I won't say insightful but you're at least driven towards logic.

"Your pure awarness is free but you not control your awarness."

Let's dismantle your estimations step by step.

What makes you believe you have no influence over your awareness?

Let's take one of the classic determinists view regarding free will by asking you to say close your eyes and imagine a regular elephant. Now did you control the image that came into your mind? Absolutely not. But can you shift between darkness and the elephant back and fourth?

Next I want you to feel into your state. Ask yourself, what am I feeling?

Sad, angry, stimulated, depressed, happy, joyful? Leave the answers for yourself.

Now I want you to try and shift whatever state you have to a calm state with the same power of awareness you used to shift between the elephant and darkness.

Hold it for 30 seconds and notice how you feel afterwards. 

While you're doing so, notice whatever centres within your being begin to light up.

You might begin to notice a feeling in your heart, other areas around there and or just generally more awareness around your body.

Secondly, given this is a transmutational process you yourself have taught yourself if you haven't already you'll begin to notice those initial feelings you had begin to take shape. This is the process of alchemy I pointed out before and how free will is pivotal to having any sense of awareness or sentience at all and that this awareness is the power to perform physiological alchemy.

Pay attention to any other subtle behaviours you exhibit as well throughout this transmutational process, even a slight exhale is the relationship between your conscious awareness signalling to your subconscious mind to begin to change the shape of the emotional and energetic body. Even noticing yourself try to hone your mind to concentrate on the act of shifting your state is the process of augmenting your capacities for concentration as well as being a reflection of the necessity of your conscious awareness here.

How did that go for you? Did you feel your own influence here? This was your free will. That is, the power and level of freedom you have with and over the will by relative degrees.

To throw away free will is to throw away awareness, conscious awareness, self awareness and sentience, all of which are largely synonymous in many ways and indicative of a power of the sorts rather than some fixed relational tie to human experience that most people inappropriately try to relate to peoples arguments for free will and therefore misinterpret the subject entirely. Free will is a power you have, with extremely deep philosophical ramifications as it concerns your relationship to reality, a relationship that if someone doesn't truly understand they will be comparatively extremely weakened in their capacity to make life changes. 

Now how shall we proceed exactly?

Are we going to proceed with you telling me that it wasn't you that had any ability to control your awareness and instead was just some mechanical process?

If this is the case, based on what kind of reasoning? Once you've explained this reasoning I'll work on the epistemic problems of that while first being open minded to a potential alternate view. You have to recall that I believe that the cause and effect materialistic paradigm is a bias of the human brain which is largely a huge flaw in the standard scientific interpretation of reality. If this is what you're standing on and you're not going to entertain the ability to question your assumptions there we won't be able to progress further in this discussion.

Complete the exercises as stated just to give me some hope that I'm not talking to someone that truly believes on a core level they're just a biological robot with automatic programming they're completely unable to transform, change, transmute, etc. 

Thank you, appreciation in advance if you follow suit here.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins