Free will - does it exist?

[Mason Riggle]

@freejoy explore what you mean by 'free will'.  That seems a bit like asking if God can make a round square.  Squares are, by definition, not round. 

Consider the word 'will'.. can anything that 'will' happen, happen 'other than' how it will? What could 'free will' mean, if doesn't mean something 'other than' 'what will'. 

[freejoy]

3 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@freejoy

3 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@freejoy explore what you mean by 'free will'.  That seems a bit like asking if God can make a round square.  Squares are, by definition, not round. 

Consider the word 'will'.. can anything that 'will' happen, happen 'other than' how it will? What could 'free will' mean, if doesn't mean something 'other than' 'what will'. 

Will is just an ability to choose a certain action.

 

 

[AdamR95]

4 hours ago, illbeyourmirror said:

@AdamR95 Can you expound upon, "You have free will in a sence if you identify yourself as god but this free will  is different than what ego thinks free will is." How to even make that distinction between ego free will vs god free will. Just saying you're god / exercising god's free will seems to be an egotistical endeavor

@illbeyourmirror If you identify yourself as a god than you have free will but that doesnt mean your ego has the power over that. Ego has zero power over gods will.

In another words what happens... happens. And what happens its gods will, you can realise that you are god but that doesnt change what happens.

Edited March 10, 2021 by AdamR95

[Mason Riggle]

@freejoy okay. What would it mean to 'freely' choose an action? 

Even if you could choose anything you want, you don't choose what your wants, and even if you could, how would you choose what you want? By wanting to?

[Danioover9000]

@illbeyourmirror

20 hours ago, illbeyourmirror said:

I recently watched a documentary on the late Zen master Wu Bong, and in it he says, “You didn’t choose when you’d be born, and you don’t choose when you’ll die, so what makes you think you can choose what happens in your life?”

And I read a quote today by Sadhguru that went, “Your life, your making. God does not interfere in it.”

And in the video by Leo on self-love, he says that self love doesnt mean that you’re just totally passive - that you take care of yourself in a conscious, mindful way. Which makes me think that god is absent/hands-off most of the time, and that we are in control of our lives.

Being honest here - it seems like spiritual teachers / speakers use the idea of free will willy nilly and loosely. One moment they're saying that everything is an illusion and that the body is an imagination, and the next moment saying  our brains need to take care of our bodies

My idea up until this point has wavered between thinking that there is no such thing as free will (even actions you think you’re doing out of your free will are being controlled) to thinking that god - the force that holds everything in perfect unity - can catch you and fill you with its presence, if it’s right, when you’re truly falling.

Writing to get others’ thoughts on free will, and to see if Leo has talked about the idea more in depth in one of his videos.

   I think Leo has talked in-depth about free will and determinism in his past videos, along with his spiritual videos. It's an interesting topic, also when it comes to Wu Bongs', Sadh gurus' and Leos' perspectives on this. I'm leaning more towards fate than free-will, yet sometimes there are situations that tend to make you veer more free-will than fate, so I guess the best thing is to share to some degree.

   The clip below is a good, short summery to the free-will vs fate, with a darker twist. Also the entire show does tackle some philosophies like existentialism, nihilism, free-will, purpose, in a medieval setting, while being both light and dark and entertaining, and serious. Viewer discretion is advised, if you're too young or can't handle dark themes, so beware!. The manga source material is much better quality for me. 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Moksha]

You are God, so of course You have free will. Whatever happens in Your life is what You choose to happen, including awakening to Yourself.

[Guest EmptyVase]

I don't know if it's true, but I love the paradox Ramin Nazer always puts forth in his art.

[Heaven]

33 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You are God, so of course You have free will. Whatever happens in Your life is what You choose to happen, including awakening to Yourself.

I’m not sure if we choose to awaken it’s rather seeing that the way we live produce suffering so we are looking to change it.

And of course it’s just another feature of that God created.

 

[Moksha]

Just now, Heaven said:

I’m not sure if we choose to awaken it’s rather seeing that the way we live produce suffering so we are looking to change it.

And of course it’s just another feature of that God created.

The human doesn't choose to awaken; the Being within the human makes the choice.

[Heaven]

31 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

I don't know if it's true, but I love the paradox Ramin Nazer always puts forth in his art.

God made himself to forget that It is doing everything for exactly this reason. How beautiful?

[Heaven]

2 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The human doesn't choose to awaken; the Being within the human makes the choice.

The Being makes all the choices. The mind just have a feeling that it is choosing for reality to feel real. Right?

[Moksha]

9 minutes ago, Heaven said:

The Being makes all the choices. The mind just have a feeling that it is choosing for reality to feel real. Right?

⚡

[freejoy]

2 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@freejoy okay. What would it mean to 'freely' choose an action? 

Even if you could choose anything you want, you don't choose what your wants, and even if you could, how would you choose what you want? By wanting to?

I might choose the long way home. : )

[Forestluv]

23 hours ago, illbeyourmirror said:

Being honest here - it seems like spiritual teachers / speakers use the idea of free will willy nilly and loosely. One moment they're saying that everything is an illusion and that the body is an imagination, and the next moment saying  our brains need to take care of our bodies

This is due to fluidity of the mind. It’s like saying “Spiritual people use the idea of water Willy Billy and loosely. One moment they’re saying water is a vapor, the next moment they say water is ice”. Water can be both vapor and ice, depending on context. Yet this will be frustrating to a rigid mind that wants answers. It will think “for crissakes, is water a vapor, liquid or ice. Just tell me which one it is!”. Yet the problem is that answering with one of those options is partially true and partially false. If I say “water is liquid”, it is true in one context - yet also false since water is also vapor and ice.

It’s a similar dynamic with free will. Whether free will exists depends on how we define ideas such as “self”, “me”, and “choice”. 

The vast majority of minds are immersed within a psychological self of “me”. My life history, my job, my likes and dislikes, my memories etc. Here, one of the biggest realizations a human mind can have is that there is no free will relative to this story of “me” and the subjective experience that I am making choices. There is an enormous price to pay to realize this illusion, yet the payoff can be enormous as well (for minds that like to expand and be free). 

This is a major breakthrough for 99.99% of minds and opens new doors. Yet this is still at a surface level. Once the illusion of self and free will is revealed, it opens up new explorations of “self”, “free” and “will”. Yet a mind must have the initial realization to see these domains. 

As well, minds that have had this realization often “pretend” that illusions are real to connect with minds that still perceive illusions as real. When I go to work, everyone believes their sense of “me” is real. They believe the character they are playing is real. Thus, for me to communicate with them, I need to pretend like the characters we play are real. Otherwise, they would see me as insane. You may see me talk to spiritual people as if the self is a dream character and then see me talk to normies as if the you and me are real. Yet in this domain, the character is real. Just as how water can either formless vapor or formed ice.

If I started communicating with you as if this is a dream in which you and I are illusions, it would seem like gibberish to you because you believe there is an entity “me” and an entity “you”. Therefore, we need to pretend like “you” and “me” are real. Yet only one of us is aware of this. 

[Origins]

@illbeyourmirror 

11 hours ago, illbeyourmirror said:

@Origins And to add to the uncanny timing, I had wanted to post on the topic on this forum for weeks and had been procrastinating. It had been stewing, and  I posted when I couldnt resist scratching the itch any longer

@Origins Yes, please share more!

It's better to work in a step by step debunking (of determinism) and bottom up sense so that any model I put forward is more readily accepted if that's okay plus its a more useful investment of my time.

Moreover there's no need to have any model of the larger universe to accept free will as it is as some people have affirmed, with or without the declaration that you're on in the same the same fact remains. It's the same as knowing your alive, you don't need verification that anything outside of you or the larger universe is alive in order to validate your own perception of your "aliveness" as the definition affords.

Can you distinguish between thought and your awareness?

Can you distinguish between thought and emotion with your awareness?

Can you distinguish between your energy and all of the above?

There is a reason why its called "free will" which is often a confusing subject for most people. It is not that "you are free from causality", it is that you have the power to be free relative to said power and that power describes your relative freedom of will. Let's take this one step at a time and please ask insightful questions for clarification, elaboration and greater differentiation.

Moreover I invite anyone here or elsewhere to intelligently retort up until they've correctly identified what it is that I'm trying to say and their ability to refute it.

One step at a time... Slowly restoring intelligence to the subject.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins

[Origins]

28 minutes ago, Origins said:

@illbeyourmirror 

It's better to work in a step by step debunking (of determinism) and bottom up sense so that any model I put forward is more readily accepted if that's okay plus its a more useful investment of my time.

Moreover there's no need to have any model of the larger universe to accept free will as it is as some people have affirmed, with or without the declaration that you're on in the same the same fact remains. It's the same as knowing your alive, you don't need verification that anything outside of you or the larger universe is alive in order to validate your own perception of your "aliveness" as the definition affords.

Can you distinguish between thought and your awareness?

Can you distinguish between thought and emotion with your awareness?

Can you distinguish between your energy and all of the above?

There is a reason why its called "free will" which is often a confusing subject for most people. It is not that "you are free from causality", it is that you have the power to be free relative to said power and that power describes your relative freedom of will. Let's take this one step at a time and please ask insightful questions for clarification, elaboration and greater differentiation.

Moreover I invite anyone here or elsewhere to intelligently retort up until they've correctly identified what it is that I'm trying to say and their ability to refute it.

One step at a time... Slowly restoring intelligence to the subject.

As a side note this is why the subject of alchemy (see the appropriate context) is so important of course, but why would someone be interested in alchemy if they didn't believe they could slowly get better at regulating the energy and powers of your their will here? I mean, that's as close as you can get when it comes to learning how to use, deepen your understanding of and strengthen the functions of free will. Free will is essentially conditional upon the understanding that you have any awareness at all and to the extent that you have said awareness is the beginning for providing the descriptive parameters for said free will. But again, let's take this one step at a time so there's no confusion along the way.

Good to entertain discussion, good to see an open mind.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Origins

[Keef]

@Origins Do you have the freewill to not want what you want?

[PureRogueQ]

All I have really to say on this topic. 

 

[Origins]

@Keef yep. That's the crux of alchemy in the way I framed it above.

[Lyubov]

Yes, you have a limited free will that comes along with being a finite life so to speak. You obviously can't will a million dollars in front of you out of nowhere as this life. You have to make it, steal it or earn it. There is a greater will encompassing it though which is baked into everything so to speak that is willing everything all at once. It's god's will or the meta will. It accepts everything as it is essentially and allows it to be.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Lyubov