The insoluble dilemma of Self-Help

[Mason Riggle]

Perhaps someone here can explain what I'm missing. 

The simple analogy I will use for 'Self-Help/Self-Improvement' is this:  'a shorter/more efficient route to work'.  I am granting, for the sake of this conversation, that 'a more efficient route to my job' IS 'helpful' to 'me'. 

Consider (and again, this is an analogy for life).. you are driving to work, the way you know how to get there.  There is a shorter, 'better' way to get there, but you aren't aware of it.  Could you discover this 'better path' any sooner than you do?  Just try to imagine the different ways you might discover this 'better path'.  You could stumble upon it by accident. Someone could tell you about it. But that's about it. You can't 'cause yourself' to know about it, any sooner than you know about it.  You will only ever discover the shortcut, IF and WHEN you do (you may never discover the shortcut). 

Now, the most common response I get to this, goes along the lines of 'you could look for the shortcut..', or 'if you focus on finding the shortcut..'. But allow me to explain why this doesn't actually solve the dilemma.

Why would you 'look for a shortcut' or 'focus on finding a shortcut', unless you knew (already discovered) that 'finding a shortcut' would be helpful to you?  In this way, 'knowing about shortcuts' is in itself another 'shortcut' that will only be discovered IF and WHEN it is. Does anyone see the problem here? 

"Self-Improvement" seems to be an automatic thing, that happens exactly as it does, if and only if, and when and only when, it does, rather than a 'self-caused' thing. 

Am I missing something?
 

[LastThursday]

55 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Am I missing something?

No.

It's the nature of reality. Stuff happens when it happens, not before, not after, there is no free will, there is no need to try and control or manipulate anything. As the folks say here often everything is perfect. 

It's the nature of self-help that you can't know something before you know it, and you can't be aware of what you're not aware of - that's what makes it so difficult and hard to get traction. We are ignorant of the depth of our ignorance, but it's only with hindsight we realise how much we didn't understand.

There's only three ways to gain knowledge and self understanding:

• Someone tells you.
• You discover it (by accident).
• You uncover it (by deduction).

The last one is weird but think of it like this: what's the area of a triangle with sides 3, 4, 5? It's obvious the triangle has a definite area, but it requires some sort of deduction or method or drug or whatever to realise the answer which is in plain sight.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by LastThursday

[Mason Riggle]

@LastThursday thanks. This is what I thought. 

[hyruga]

Reading self-help may help you cope with potential problems in the future. 

For example, if you are training to be a salesman, you should obviously read more books on selling. So you will gain wisdom from there.

So even if you didn't know whether 'a shortcut' exist or not, you still read it because you may gain the insight which will then help you in your sales. For instance, what happens if a customer asks you something which you do not have the answer to. Self help will teach you to say in a better manner like 'I do not have the answer but I can get the information for you.' instead of just saying 'I dunno'

So even if you do not know whether a solution exist, you still should read more to anticipate future things that may arise.

 

[Moksha]

In your analogy, others have already discovered the shortcut, and can give you directions to the shortcut, but you still have to find the shortcut yourself. Nobody can drive you there, but you.

We can go meta and talk about how there is no "you" looking for a shortcut, there are no "others" pointing to the shortcut, there is in fact no shortcut, and no journey, and you have no free will, as a cartoon character within the story.

But how is that helpful? You created you, for a reason. You can either suffer during the story, or you can awaken within the dream, live lucidly, and realize and express the Love that you ultimately are. What you can't do is escape the story, until the Storyteller is ready for you to escape. Even if you try, You will continue the narrative, until You decide that it is time for you to come home. So, choose your own adventure.

[Mason Riggle]

6 minutes ago, hyruga said:

Reading self-help may help you cope with potential problems in the future. 

^this 'tip' may help me cope with potential problems in the future.. but I couldn't have discovered this before I did. 

Could I 'help myself' discover that 'reading self-help may help you cope with potential problems in the future.' any sooner than I discover this? 

"The shortcut will help me get to work faster." While this is true, I can not become aware of the shortcut any sooner than I become aware of it.  The same is true for any 'shortcut' to this discovery.  

Imagine that you are looking at an image full of 'hidden objects', and you are looking for them. Can you find them sooner than you will find them? You can not... but more than that, you can't even 'look for them' any sooner than it occurs to you to look for them.  Can you cause yourself to 'look for the hidden objects in the picture' any sooner than it occurs to you to? 

"Finding the hidden objects" occurs exactly when, and only when, and if and only if, it does, and there's nothing you can do to 'speed this up' or 'slow it down', or in fact, manipulate it in any way. 

 

[hyruga]

You probably think too much. It helps if you have a job as a problem solver, analyst, researcher or professor in philosophy etc.

[Mason Riggle]

8 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You can either suffer during the story, or you can awaken within the dream

Yes, either of these things can happen. But can I cause either to happen any sooner than I will? 

[Mason Riggle]

14 minutes ago, hyruga said:

You probably think too much. It helps if you have a job as a problem solver, analyst, researcher or professor in philosophy etc.

I think precisely the amount that I do.   To me, this is like saying, 'you grow hair too much'.  Could I grow it any less? Who's to say how much 'hair growing' is 'too much'? 

[Moksha]

59 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Yes, either of these things can happen. But can I cause either to happen any sooner than I will? 

Define "I". 

Unconditionality is freedom. Complete freedom is only possible in ultimate reality, because it is the only realm of utter unconditionality. The more "you" disidentify with your conditioned mind, and realize yourself as Consciousness, the more free "you" will be.

It is possible to learn to discipline the mind, and the more you choose this path, the more free you will become. That is what I mean by dreaming lucidly. You can realize yourself as Consciousness, and the more you do so, the more choice you will have, until eventually you return to complete freedom, which is unconditional Love. This is the ultimate destiny, and the demise, of the self.

Yes, it is a story, but it is also a mystery. Paradoxically, Consciousness has the capacity to "wake up" to itself, even while incarnated in its characters, within the story. The more awake your character is, the more free it will be.

[Mason Riggle]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

It is possible to learn to discipline the mind, and the more you choose this path, the more free you will become.

Define "you". 

If there's a 'me' who will become more free, this is the same 'me' that is being referred to when I say "But can I cause either to happen any sooner than I will?". 

If there is no 'me', there is no 'me' who can 'become more free'.  There is no 'me' who can 'realize itself as consciousness'. 
 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Moksha]

19 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

If there is no 'me', there is no 'me' who can 'become more free'.  There is no 'me' who can 'realize itself as consciousness'. 
 

See my original post about going meta. "Little you" is a character, told by, and being played by "You".  "Little you" can only become more free, within the parameters of the story. Outside of the story, there are no characters; there is only "You".

Awakening, free will, and spiritual development, are real...but only within the bounds of the cosmos, or relative reality. They are motifs of the story "You" are telling. They are still part of "You".

So, "Little you" can go meta, and apathetically throw away this cartoon character life as an illusion, but "Little you" is still bound to the story, whether it wants to be or not. The only way to escape the story is to realize who "You" actually are, dissolving the conditions binding "Little you" to the story, in the first place. And why is "Little you" so anxious to escape? "You" created "Little you" for a reason. Respect and enjoy the story, lucidly.

[Mason Riggle]

@Moksha

"So, "Little you" can go meta"

"Little you" is still bound to the story."

What do you mean, 'bound to the story'?  Because it seems to me like "Little you" can only 'go meta' if that's how the story goes (and Little you isn't writing the story)... which is what I've been saying all along. 

 

[Mason Riggle]

"Little you" can't realize itself as 'Big you', unless that's what 'Big you' does.  

There is, in fact, nothing that 'Little you' does, that 'Big you' isn't 'doing'. 

"Little you" can not 'help himself' do anything. 

[Mason Riggle]

"The only way to escape the story is to realize who "You" actually are."

^this only happens, if that's how the story goes. 

[Moksha]

@Mason Riggle Consciousness is everything, including both the Storyteller and the characters it creates. So yes, from a meta perspective, there is no "free will". There is only Consciousness, in different states of awareness. One could define "free will" parochially, by allowing it within relative reality, but in the end does it matter?

Maybe ask yourself why "Little you" cares? Are you going to live your "Little you" life any differently based on the answer?

[Mason Riggle]

@Moksha perhaps you are missing that I only care 'rhetorically'. 

When a Guru asks, 'who is it that is seeking?', do you think he asks because he wants the answer? 

[At awe]

What bothers  me is that for many/probably all questions the answer exists but I don’t have an access  to it. There’s knowing but no access. For example you are driving home from work and you are wondering if the puppy has peed on the floor. That info exists but I don’t know before I get home. Very frustrating.

[Moksha]

44 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

When a Guru asks, 'who is it that is seeking?', do you think he asks because he wants the answer? 

When the Buddha implores people to choose right thoughts, right words, and right actions, do you think he cares about rhetorical free will?

[Moksha]

36 minutes ago, At awe said:

What bothers  me is that for many/probably all questions the answer exists but I don’t have an access  to it. There’s knowing but no access. For example you are driving home from work and you are wondering if the puppy has peed on the floor. That info exists but I don’t know before I get home. Very frustrating.

Maybe it's a feature, rather than a bug. You realize what you need to know, in the moment you can do something about it. If you can't do anything about it, why let it frustrate you?