Religious VS Scientific Truth

[Focus Shift]

While editing this, I thought of Leo's recent videos on Holistic thinking. Is there a clear and distinct boundary between science and religion? Are religious and scientific truth mutually exclusive? “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” - Werner Heisenberg

[commie]

There are deluded scientists but no scientific truth.

[Bodhitree]

There is no such thing as religious truth. Religions are built on the words of deceased enlightened teachers, and those words are twisted and edited to suit a purpose, and even in their original pure state they were only fingers pointing to the moon.

There is also no such thing as scientific truth. There are only theories which have withstood some measure of critique and are temporarily accepted until a better idea comes along. It’s a vague edifice of not much more than a few principles.

[GreenWoods]

55 minutes ago, Focus Shift said:

. Is there a clear and distinct boundary between science and religion?

No.

It's the same mind game.

[Gesundheit]

This assumes a religion and a science out there in the world and not inside the mind.

[Focus Shift]

From an ultimate standpoint, all of this is just letters, even everything on your screen and perception, just a collection of shapes that we interpret to have meaning. However, in the relative stance in which we find ourselves most of the time, religion and science exists. I think the point Heisenberg is trying to make is that science is useful for understanding reality from a mechanical standpoint, whereas religion is useful for morality and view of the world. However, Heisenberg says that the two should be kept separate. What would be a more holistic view of science and religion? 

[Gesundheit]

57 minutes ago, Focus Shift said:

religion and science exists.

Where? I want to know the exact location so that I can take a piss there.

[GreenWoods]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Where? I want to know the exact location so that I can take a piss there.

??

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Focus Shift said:

What would be a more holistic view of science and religion? 

I don't know about holism and why that word is being used nowadays more than usual. But typically, the answer to this question is stage Green of Spiral Dynamics.

[Tim R]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I don't know about holism and why that word is being used nowadays more than usual. But typically, the answer to this question is stage Green of Spiral Dynamics.

Stage Green is a Backlash against religion and to some extent also against science, so it's not nearly holistic enough to merge science with religion, that starts at stage Yellow, at least on a level of theoretical understanding. 

@Focus Shift Since religion sprung from mysticism, stage Turquoise is your best bet. Because stage Turquoise actually understands what people like Jesus or Lao Tsu were talking about. 

And there you can really combine science with mysticism. I say mysticism and not religion because religion is mostly dogma, so we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And by doing that with religion, we're left with mysticism. 

Combining science with religion gets you mostly into trouble. 

[Gesundheit]

15 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Stage Green is a Backlash against religion and to some extent also against science.

Source?

[Tim R]

40 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Source?

@Gesundheit You can watch Leo's videos, read the Spiral Dynamics book, make research on the internet, etc. 

Green's values don't resonate at all with religion. That should be pretty obvious. Imagine the archetypal stage green person meeting an archetypal religious person. You think they'd get along very well? I doubt it...

And the extent to which green is a backlash against science: you know for example that funny thing Ben Shapiro said "facts don't care about your feelings"? Well what do you think that is? It's of course blue's/orange's aversive reaction against green. 

It's not that green has any aversion against science per se, it's only that green tries to overcome the cold, hard, rationalistic and "factual" worldview of scientism (more appropriate and inclusive word than science in this case) that, taken to an extreme, produces suffering and other problems. And so, green tends to have some values that might often be considered as "unscientific" and/or "too subjective" to be incorporated in science, that's no accident. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Tim R

[Hulia]

On 6.3.2021 at 7:38 PM, Focus Shift said:

While editing this, I thought of Leo's recent videos on Holistic thinking. Is there a clear and distinct boundary between science and religion? Are religious and scientific truth mutually exclusive? “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” - Werner Heisenberg

For me the boundary is more than clear and distinct:

1. The relogion is static, hence the sience is dynamic. It´s the very essence of religion to preserve the believes. Nothing changed since 2.000 years. And if they don´t burn the witches and scientists, it´s not because they recognized their mistakes, but because they´ve lost their power and are subcect to a humanistic civil law. In the countries where it´s not the case, they still burn the witches and scientists.

2. The science is very well AWARE of its LIMITATIONS. The religion - not. Scince tryes to overcome the limitation as far as possible, e.g. by building the teams out of experts from different fields, by repeating experiments under different conditions and always leaving a room for doubts and checks.

3. The science RECOGNIZES its mistakes. It´s the very essence of development. And science is a development, otherwise we wouldn´t be where we are now. Religion sticks on dogmas which are not allowed to change.

4. The purpose of science is the TRUTH, it may be not the quickest and not the most efficient way to get to the truth. But it´s the best way under GIVEN CONDITIONS. 

The purpose of religion is inner peace, harmony, love.. theoretically. But pracically it´s a tool of control and manipulation, causing violence and wars.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Hulia

[Gesundheit]

7 hours ago, Tim R said:

@Gesundheit

Green's values don't resonate at all with religion. That should be pretty obvious. Imagine the archetypal stage green person meeting an archetypal religious person. You think they'd get along very well? I doubt it...

Neither does Yellow or Turquoise.

I think what you mean by science is materialism, and what you mean by religion is dogma. In this case, I agree.

[Focus Shift]

@Gesundheit I want to know the exact location of the spiral dynamics stage green, source so I can piss there

[Gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Focus Shift said:

@Gesundheit I want to know the exact location of the spiral dynamics stage green, source so I can piss there

I'll lend you my bladder in case you run out of juice.

[Tim R]

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

I think what you mean by science is materialism, and what you mean by religion is dogma. In this case, I agree.

Yes, that's definitely the largest part of it.

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Neither does Yellow or Turquoise.

True, but unlike Green they understand it and don't condemn it.

[Gesundheit]

44 minutes ago, Tim R said:

True, but unlike Green they understand it and don't condemn it.

I really don't think we're talking about the same Green.

[Hen Zuhe]

Spirituality (Religion) and Conventional Science, both in differents dimentions/plans. They´re complementary.

In few next years we will proove thaat. SOON.

NAMASTE.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hen Zuhe
Wrong tiping

[Hen Zuhe]

Spirituality (Religion) and Conventional Science, both in differents dimentions/plans. They´re complementary.

In few next years we will prove that. SOON. Verry Soon.

NAMASTE.