Teal swan - what a woman needs from a man in a relationship

[AdamR95]

30 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

you are probably overestimating your developement because you do the same things you are criticizing.

 

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I won't dismiss that. I don't dismiss any criticisms.

"you are probably overestimating your developement" - this was actually the important part of my point.

Thats all i want to say because i dont want to bring more of my projections to this. This one thing i mentioned was the thing that hit me in the eyes the most. Just one specific thing you can reflect on.

[Gesundheit]

@AdamR95 Well, the truth is that there's no objective way we can measure our development. You can't really say that someone is more developed than someone else without a set of criteria to contrast everyone against first. Consider that all growth/development is relative. It makes a lot more sense this way. Yet, in practice, someone who is more developed in a certain area can see the lack of development in others. However, this will only be an assumption and can only be verified by the other person. If the other person denies that assumption, there's no way to prove it to them, in practice. You can tell them that they're closed-minded or something like that, but then what's the point? Who's to say what's better? What if being closed-minded is more useful to them than being open-minded, at least in that particular area? So, at this point, you start to question the value of open-mindedness and how it's ultimately just another subjective criterion that you've made and favored above others so that you can call yourself "more developed". You probably know what I'm talking about, because you told me previously that I am chasing my tail, and that's correct in a sense. In another sense, I am not completely satisfied with my current situation, so I will keep chasing my tail until I am. That being said, not everyone recognizes that, but that's ultimately what I want to share with others. But people clinging to their identities stands in the way, so here we are. Then again, I recognize that it's all meaningless in the end. Thanks for your feedback, anyway.

[AdamR95]

16 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

@AdamR95 Well, the truth is that there's no objective way we can measure our development. You can't really say that someone is more developed than someone else without a set of criteria to contrast everyone against first. Consider that all growth/development is relative. It makes a lot more sense this way. Yet, in practice, someone who is more developed in a certain area can see the lack of development in others. However, this will only be an assumption and can only be verified by the other person. If the other person denies that assumption, there's no way to prove it to them, in practice. You can tell them that they're closed-minded or something like that, but then what's the point? Who's to say what's better? What if being closed-minded is more useful to them than being open-minded, at least in that particular area? So, at this point, you start to question the value of open-mindedness and how it's ultimately just another subjective criterion that you've made and favored above others so that you can call yourself "more developed". You probably know what I'm talking about, because you told me previously that I am chasing my tail, and that's correct in a sense. In another sense, I am not completely satisfied with my current situation, so I will keep chasing my tail until I am. That being said, not everyone recognizes that, but that's ultimately what I want to share with others. But people clinging to their identities stands in the way, so here we are. Then again, I recognize that it's all meaningless in the end. Thanks for your feedback, anyway.

@Gesundheit i get you. You can set your own standarts for developement. 

But maybe there is a way you can measure it objectively in a sence that there is a thing called absolute love and you can become more and more align to that thing.

But i am aware that when you get very close you realise its nothing wrong with being devil too and you can choose to being devil. lol

But in a sence there is a way you can be more godlike and less godlike if you know what i mean.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by AdamR95

[Gesundheit]

4 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

@Gesundheit i get you. You can set your own standarts for developement. 

But maybe there is a way you can measure it objectively in a sence that there is a thing called absolute love and you can become more and more align to that thing.

But i am aware that when you get very close you realise its nothing wrong with being devil too and you can choose to being devil. lol

But in a sence there is a way you can be more godlike and less godlike if you know what i mean.

I know what you mean, but God is the devil. Nothing can be more or less God than it currently is. After all, who's choosing the standards?

[AdamR95]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

I know what you mean, but God is the devil. Nothing can be more or less God than it currently is. After all, who's choosing the standards?

@Gesundheit Yeah i know and because of that i said "in a sence".

At first i had ego reactions over your replies but now i see you are very clever guy and you own your weaknessess rather then demonize them. Good for you.

The funny thing is we are all hypocrates haha.

Edited March 12, 2021 by AdamR95

[Samuel Garcia]

@Gesundheit @Surfingthewave Thanks for the feedback. Glad you resonated with the post.

 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Yes, I know that I don't take other people's emotions into consideration when I talk. To be frank, part of that I do on purpose. People cling to their identities through emotions, and I purposefully try to trigger people's emotions which in turn will bring out their shadows and attachments. I do that to alert them and push them further on the path. That's part of my curse when it extends out to others. Some people will benefit from this if they're open to it and ready, but some people won't and will react and go into self-defence mode. It's a risky practice, but it can also be extremely rewarding if one is open to it and willing to grow.

I see that you actually have conscious reasons for acting how you're acting. Interesting.

Let me show you something you could be missing. A criticism is a push-away. You're not bringing people closer to you when you criticize someone, you are pushing them away. It creates separation or the perception of separation. It's a rejection of how they currently are coupled with an expectation of how you'd like them to be.

Now, if you come into this with a rejecting message, are you sure you're helping them? Will they receive help from someone who sends them a rejecting message? You are right about the part where them going into defence-mode is a sign of insecurity. But, they may very well want to have nothing to do with you once they've worked that part out. If you're fine with that, if you're fine with pushing people away, then we have no problem. Just be mindful of the fact that you're the one doing the push-away here. Healthy people will go away from you if you do this.

[Gesundheit]

59 minutes ago, AdamR95 said:

@Gesundheit 

The funny thing is we are all hypocrates haha.

Some of us don't know and deny that, though.

[Gesundheit]

46 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I see that you actually have conscious reasons for acting how you're acting. Interesting.

Let me show you something you could be missing. A criticism is a push-away. You're not bringing people closer to you when you criticize someone, you are pushing them away. It creates separation or the perception of separation. It's a rejection of how they currently are coupled with an expectation of how you'd like them to be.

Now, if you come into this with a rejecting message, are you sure you're helping them? Will they receive help from someone who sends them a rejecting message? You are right about the part where them going into defence-mode is a sign of insecurity. But, they may very well want to have nothing to do with you once they've worked that part out.

Interesting.

The thing is that there's no guarantee either way. You could be extremely soft and careful, and still not make a difference. In fact, being indirect can be counterproductive sometimes as opposed to being direct. Directness does not miss the point. It points to it directly. Plus, it weeds out people who are not actually interested in moving forward, and who lack in self-love. On a self-development forum, I expect everyone to be growth-oriented. So, my technique should be working with 100% effectiveness. Yet, the reality is different. And not everyone is genuinely interested in growing.

46 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Healthy people will go away from you if you do this.

Says who? Who decides health in this case? Maybe the healthiest people are the ones who actually gravitate towards me. Maybe only the weak ones will go away. I mean, if we define health as strength.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Gesundheit

[integral]

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

The thing is that there's no guarantee either way. You could be extremely soft and careful, and still not make a difference. In fact, being indirect can be counterproductive sometimes as opposed to being direct. Directness does not miss the point. It points to it directly. Plus, it weeds out people who are not actually interested in moving forward. On a self-development forum, I expect everyone to be growth-oriented. So, my technique should be working with 100% effectiveness. Yet, the reality is different. And not everyone is genuinely interested in growing.

As someone who speaks directly, expects everyone to be growth oriented and pisses people off, i know the directness comes from a place want. 

You want to communicate this way and are using mental gymnastics to justify it. 

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Says who? Who decides health in this case? Maybe the healthiest people are the ones who actually gravitate towards me. Maybe only the weak ones will go away. I mean, if we define health as strength.

Mental gymnastics. There are pros and cons to both methods and should be situationally used. But you favor one over the other, its coming from emotion not a strategy to help people grow. 

If you where really being unbiased and strategic about helping people grow, you would be flexible, because its a better strategy. 

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, integral said:

its coming from emotion not a strategy to help people grow.

Why do you make a distinction between the two? Emotions are the reason why I implement my strategies, just like anyone does. Of course, you can add nuance to the strategy, and I do use nuance sometimes. Have you read all my 3058 posts?

Then again, even with all the nuances in the world, there's still no guarantee. Some people will perceive things in the most unexpected ways. This is important to realize, because the ego does not possess infinite intelligence even though it might think it does.

All in all, and on the most fundamental level, I don't really want to be here helping people. It's a compulsive curse and an addiction that I have and am trying to get rid of. So, yeah, becoming the best communicator is not my most desired goal.

[integral]

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Yes, I know that I don't take other people's emotions into consideration when I talk. To be frank, part of that I do on purpose. People cling to their identities through emotions, and I purposefully try to trigger people's emotions which in turn will bring out their shadows and attachments. I do that to alert them and push them further on the path. That's part of my curse when it extends out to others. Some people will benefit from this if they're open to it and ready, but some people won't and will react and go into self-defence mode. It's a risky practice, but it can also be extremely rewarding if one is open to it and willing to grow.

Everything written after this was to justify this. 

Im claiming its bullshit, its incredibly ineffective strategy to purposefully try to trigger peoples emotions to help them. The reason your doing this has nothing to do with helping people, its about getting what you want.  

36 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

All in all, and on the most fundamental level, I don't really want to be here helping people. It's a compulsive curse and an addiction that I have and am trying to get rid of. So, yeah, becoming the best communicator is not my most desired goal.

Contradiction with the first comment. 

 

If i had to guess its about correcting people mistakes. We all have that erge to correct an "error" we think we see in a comment. But the way your going about it is at least in communication style just your natural personalities argumentativeness. There is no strategy behind it, all talk about your strategy is a fabrication to justify doing what ever you want.  

Again saying the motivation has nothing to do with helping people and the communication style is argumentative because it comes naturally to you and your justifying it. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by integral

[Gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

its incredibly ineffective strategy to purposefully try to trigger peoples emotions to help them.

That's just your paradigm. And it's not true in my experience. A person who is truly interested in growing will not take anything personally. I have worked with friends and family members on resolving certain issues, and the directness was most appreciated. In fact, I was asked specifically for that particular reason. Why? Because they were sincerely interested in growing.

6 minutes ago, integral said:

Contradiction with the first comment. 

Contradiction is inherent in growth, because, by definition, here is not there. I am trying to move from here (compulsively helping people), to there (sitting alone and enjoying inner stillness/enlightenment).

[Parththakkar12]

59 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Says who? Who decides health in this case? Maybe the healthiest people are the ones who actually gravitate towards me. Maybe only the weak ones will go away. I mean, if we define health as strength.

When I say 'healthy', I mean healthy in the context of relationship. Here's the thing - if you send the message that you don't want the person in front of you to be the way they are, if that's your style of relating with people, that's where the problem lies. If you are a Life-coach or someone who really doesn't care about having personal relationships with your clients outside of coaching, you're in good shape! The problem will come in friendships, dating, etc.

Depends on what your priority is. Is your priority to coach them out of their situation? Or is it to be friends with them? Criticism will create friction in the relationship, that is a sure thing. And, if this is something you do on purpose, I'd advise you to be weary of this.

In personal relationships, human beings need closeness. Criticism comes across as a threat to that closeness. So, if you're critiquing someone, I'd suggest that it be solicited first. That way you'll know for sure whether they're growing themselves or not, and/or whether they're willing to give you a role in their growth-process or not. If you're some sort of Life-coach, you know the answer to that question and you can help them in your way. If it's a personal relationship though, that's trickier.

The defensiveness you get in response is not entirely based on their insecurity! Not if they're looking to you for closeness and then get blindsided by your criticism.

[Gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

When I say 'healthy', I mean healthy in the context of relationship. Here's the thing - if you send the message that you don't want the person in front of you to be the way they are, if that's your style of relating with people, that's where the problem lies. If you are a Life-coach or someone who really doesn't care about having personal relationships with your clients outside of coaching, you're in good shape! The problem will come in friendships, dating, etc.

Depends on what your priority is. Is your priority to coach them out of their situation? Or is it to be friends with them? Criticism will create friction in the relationship, that is a sure thing. And, if this is something you do on purpose, I'd advise you to be weary of this.

In personal relationships, human beings need closeness. Criticism comes across as a threat to that closeness. So, if you're critiquing someone, I'd suggest that it be solicited first. That way you'll know for sure whether they're growing themselves or not, and/or whether they're willing to give you a role in their growth-process or not. If you're some sort of Life-coach, you know the answer to that question and you can help them in your way. If it's a personal relationship though, that's trickier.

The defensiveness you get in response is not entirely based on their insecurity! Not if they're looking to you for closeness and then get blindsided by your criticism.

The need for closeness is due to the lack of self-love/enlightenment, which is ultimately a delusion, and it won't go away with comforting. In fact, it will only get worse. Comforting is like a painkiller. It only gives you temporary relief, but never addresses the real problem. Moreover, the path towards liberation requires going through hardships that are uncomfortable for the ego. That's why I said that people here are too soft for enlightenment, because the truth is harsh, and there's no way around that. I'm critiquing someone that doesn't even exist. But some people think that they do exist, hence all the butt hurting.

[Parththakkar12]

@Gesundheit Out of curiosity, do you believe that the only reason for loneliness is a lack of self-love? Do you believe that human beings can exist separately if we ever reached a point where we don't materially depend on each other anymore for survival/materialism?

Do you believe that 'independence is the ultimate good/ultimate ideal of strength that we should all aspire to'?

Edited March 12, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Gesundheit Out of curiosity, do you believe that the only reason for loneliness is a lack of self-love? Do you believe that human beings can exist separately if we ever reached a point where we don't materially depend on each other anymore for survival/materialism?

Absolutely.

1 minute ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Gesundheit 

Do you believe that 'independence is the ultimate good/ultimate ideal of strength that we should all aspire to'?

For the sake of simplicity, I will say for me, yes. But for others, it may be something else. The language used in the question is a can of worms, so I just answered from a face value level.

[Parththakkar12]

@Gesundheit I've been there. Oh my God. This is exactly what I used to believe!

All I'm going to say is - Prepare yourself for a rude awakening the day you feel lonely. The day you really feel it, you'll have an existential crisis. This is what happened to me. I speak based on experience.

[integral]

 

42 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

That's just your paradigm. And it's not true in my experience. A person who is truly interested in growing will not take anything personally. I have worked with friends and family members on resolving certain issues, and the directness was most appreciated. In fact, I was asked specifically for that particular reason. Why? Because they were sincerely interested in growing.

hmm everything i said was ignored. This is more justifying things. 

Topics:

1)  Nothing is done because you want to help people, its about a addiction you commented about.

2) A Communication style that triggers peoples emotions comes naturally to you thats the real underling reason you do it. 

3) 1 and 2 are being masked by elaborate stories (justifying them). Bias. 

[Surfingthewave]

4 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Yes, I know that I don't take other people's emotions into consideration when I talk. To be frank, part of that I do on purpose. People cling to their identities through emotions, and I purposefully try to trigger people's emotions which in turn will bring out their shadows and attachments. I do that to alert them and push them further on the path. 

Don't get me wrong, though. I don't do that to avoid looking inwards, I actually do the same thing with myself, even more harshly, and attribute most of my growth to this one practice. You may not believe this, but what you've read so far is kindergarten compared to how harsh I can be. I am more careful with others than with myself, and with women I'm extra careful. It's kind of frustrating when I am told that I am a misogynist, because I am actually trying to help.

@Gesundheit 

What you so describe can potentially be very damaging for people, triggering people's emotions. You're not helping people on here I'm sorry to say.

Give yourself some love and attention you are looking for. That's the key to this. You will be helping others that way.

I'm sorry to hear you are harsh on yourself. We attract what we give. Perhaps work on your limiting beliefs. Work on yourself rather than all this mental masturbation and justifying your position. 

Meditation, yoga, therapy etc etc. 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Surfingthewave