Teal swan - what a woman needs from a man in a relationship

[intotheblack]

 

[Emerald]

I watched this earlier. It was pretty accurate.

I drank some shroom tea the other day with a friend, and it was bringing me into the emotions that I typically wouldn't be aware of.

And one thing that was coming up were a bunch of realizations about how my softness and femininity (the energy, not the cultural associations) has had to be hidden because I've been subjected to and subjected myself to a lot of traumatic situations that I had to deal with all by myself without any support. And I did have to push away my femininity and flip myself into a more armored and masculine aspect of my polarity to cope with all that and still continue to grow as a person.

And on top of that, there was always a subtle social subtext of society seeing femininity as less than masculinity and seeing feminine traits as trite that I adopted at a fairly young age. At around 8 or 9, I realized that my feminine interests were the laughing stock of society. So, I let a lot of things go and focused on developing my masculine side in order to get more respect and kindness from others... and it worked. 

So, it was just never really emotionally safe to really connect to my femininity. I never really felt supported or contained in relation to those aspects of myself. 

And because of this I find the idea of masculine containment both very alluring and very triggering/anxiety producing as well. Though I have worked through some of that anxiety/trauma around fears of inferiority and internalized misogyny in the past decade, there are still things to be worked through. And when I was taking the shrooms I really connected to my softness and the deeper power of my femininity.

But you'd have to really find a man who is connected enough to his own feminine side and who is emotionally intelligent enough to be attuned to his partner, which is somewhat uncommon in the present because of how men are conditioned to toughen themselves up and lose sight of their emotions... also because the feminine has been viewed as lesser.

Now, it is much better than that has ever been before. And it will probably get much better in the future. 

So, you'd have to find a man who has reconciled and integrated both his masculine and feminine polarity to really feel contained by him. Probably the majority of men still have an embattled relationship to the feminine in themselves and in others. And femininity/softness may still be regarded as flaw to get someone to improve from. 

[Preety_India]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And on top of that, there was always a subtle social subtext of society seeing femininity as less than masculinity and seeing feminine traits as trite that I adopted at a fairly young age. At around 8 or 9, I realized that my feminine interests were the laughing stock of society. So, I let a lot of things go and focused on developing my masculine side in order to get more respect and kindness from others... and it worked. 

I often remember that my softness and feminine vulnerability was often responded to with comments like "you're being a drama queen" or I'm exaggerating stuff. 

It was as if my feminine aspects were subject to laughter, mockery and ridicule. 

I remember once when someone played a bad prank on me and I was terrified and then everyone laughed at my terrified face. It was a sort of a joy to see a woman feeling scared. 

 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I often remember that my softness and feminine vulnerability was often responded to with comments like "you're being a drama queen" or I'm exaggerating stuff. 

It was as if my feminine aspects were subject to laughter, mockery and ridicule. 

I remember once when someone played a bad prank on me and I was terrified and then everyone laughed at my terrified face. It was a sort of a joy to see a woman feeling scared. 

 

I definitely got a lot of that. I was made fun of a lot for being sensitive. Then, a lot of people would under-estimate me or try to infantilize me and let me win... low expectations because I was a little girl. And that pissed me off to no end as a child.

And then, in society at large, the feminine was always lampooned in some way. Making someone act exaggeratedly feminine (male or female) was always a way to poke fun. And there was this general implication of trite-ness to those who are feminine.

And there was a character trope that was really popular when I was growing up. It was the badass chick that was a very attractive tomboy. So, she was a beautiful girl on the outside but a guy on the inside... aesthetically feminine but morally masculine and implied to be superior to other girls who were feminine on the outside and feminine (in a toxic way) on the inside. And I really identified with that trope.

But at the same time, I had a lot of complicated and toxic relationships with women and girls back then. I was usually the target of orchestrated emotional bullying tactics that large groups of girls my age would engage in. 

So, I decided as a 8 or 9 year old that I was going to be like that trope, because I hated girls back then. I wanted to be as little like them as possible.

Add on top of that, that my dad is a really nice, warm-hearted guy. So, I always identified strongly with my dad and his pacifistic philosophies and ways. And I made this distinction that femininity is associated with aggressiveness and meanness and that masculinity is associated with pacifism, tolerance, and niceness.

And I sought to rid myself of my femininity because I saw femininity as inherently mean, spiteful, manipulative, and aggressive. And I saw masculinity as inherently chilled out, tolerant, warm hearted, and calm. 

So it was a whole host of complicated relationships to girls/women who were dealing with internalized misogyny and taking that out on me that made me internalize misogyny and find more comfort in the masculine... part of which required me to toughen myself up and be non-reactive.

So, I would have other children intentionally hurt me to show that I wouldn't flinch. And I became so competitive. I grew and individuated a lot as a result. But I fully left my femininity behind until I hit 20 and had my first awakening experience and realized that I had been repressing my femininity for a long time.

At that point, I didn't even believe that femininity was real. I thought it was a social construct, and that masculinity was too. And I had covered over my internalized misogyny with the belief of gender being fully societally constructed. And I had covered over my hatred of women with the idea that "I love everyone." So, it got pushed down a layer.

And then it sprang to the surface during the awakening. And I've been working on that issue ever since. And it came up again the other day on shrooms. And I felt so connected to my femininity and so soft. But there was a deep empowerment to it... a very queenly kind of feeling arose in me. And I didn't do any of the usual hedging that I would typically do when speaking of what I'm experiencing. 

[soos_mite_ah]

I just watched this video and I feel like it really resonated with me. Coincidentally, I was journaling about this last night and I came to similar conclusions myself.  I'm going to copy and paste that entry because I think that it's applicable to this thread.

14 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

The Type of Masculine Energy I Want in my Life

I want a man who is going to be masculine, assertive, and dominant I guess but will express those things in a very gentle way. I crave gentleness in my life and I feel that in order for me personally to be in my feminine energy that I need a man who will be gentle with me so that I feel safe enough to be vulnerable. I feel like I'm embodying my masculine energy most of the time in my life other than when it comes to my appearance. I'm also very comfortable with that. But when I think of a relationship, I think of it as the one place where I can embrace my feminine energy the most. I want to build this sense of emotional intimacy with someone so that I can be emotional and vulnerable around him. 

Another factor that is important in me feeling safe enough to feel like I can be vulnerable is competence. I tend to come off as a very competent person (to what extent this is healthy is something that I'm working through and I'm probably going to do a post on that) and I need a man who will be more competent than me so that I feel like I can rely on him, not in a dependence way but in a way where I have faith that he can take care of business when I'm in my moment of vulnerability. Because a lot of the time due to me encountering dumb men, I find myself in this energy

And honestly, I'm tired of doing everything by myself. I'm tired of being the one who always has to have her life together because the people around me can't get their shit together.

Growing up my parents were incompetent. I often found myself in the position where I had to teach them how to act instead of it being the other way around. I went to schools that were underfunded with teachers who had no idea how to help me reach my goals so I had to figure that out on my own.

In therapy, I'm really good at psychoanalyzing myself, figuring out what's wrong with me, and coming up with a plan to cope.  One time I had a therapist tell me that she lowkey enjoys sessions with me because I essentially solve my own problems and come up with good insights and she just has to intervene every now and then because of a few blind spots I have.  

Even recently with my issues with PCOS, I had to make 8 different doctors appointments because there were a bunch of formalities that they have to go through in order to prescribe me birth control. It was a whole thing that dragged on for like 2 months and in the mean time while they were dealing with whatever they were dealing with, I managed to fix most of my symptoms by trying out different things with my diet.

Finally, I haven't had a solid group of friends I talk to on a regular basis so all of the work I have been doing on myself in therapy, I've been going at it alone with little emotional support. I had to be emotionally there for myself the whole time and there wasn't people that I could really find myself leaning on. It has gotten worse after I had to move back in with my emotionally unavailable family and the isolation I have experienced in the last year. Speaking of making friends, I think it is more important to find a solid group of friends before jumping into a relationship. I don't want to fall into a codependent dynamic.   

As empowering this sense of independence and resilience is, it is also exhausting. It feels like nothing would get done unless I do it myself. And sometimes I want to take a break by curling up next to a guy who knows just as much or more than me. I want to submit to this soft and emotional side of myself because it's a side that I don't get to express very often. 

I want to be emotional without being dismissed as being crazy. I want to be emotional without feeling like I need to be fixed or that there is something wrong with me.
I want to be vulnerable without fearing that someone would take advantage of that and see that as an opportunity to be controlling. I want to feel like I can be safe in a relationship psychologically without needing to be this perfect person with no vulnerabilities and dysfunctions. I don't want to constantly work on myself and feel like in order to be in a healthy relationship that I have to have my life 100% together. 

[soos_mite_ah]

28 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I definitely got a lot of that. I was made fun of a lot for being sensitive. Then, a lot of people would under-estimate me or try to infantilize me and let me win... low expectations because I was a little girl. And that pissed me off to no end as a child.

And then, in society at large, the feminine was always lampooned in some way. Making someone act exaggeratedly feminine (male or female) was always a way to poke fun. And there was this general implication of trite-ness to those who are feminine.

And there was a character trope that was really popular when I was growing up. It was the badass chick that was a very attractive tomboy. So, she was a beautiful girl on the outside but a guy on the inside... aesthetically feminine but morally masculine and implied to be superior to other girls who were feminine on the outside and feminine (in a toxic way) on the inside. And I really identified with that trope.

But at the same time, I had a lot of complicated and toxic relationships with women and girls back then. I was usually the target of orchestrated emotional bullying tactics that large groups of girls my age would engage in. 

So, I decided as a 8 or 9 year old that I was going to be like that trope, because I hated girls back then. I wanted to be as little like them as possible.

Add on top of that, that my dad is a really nice, warm-hearted guy. So, I always identified strongly with my dad and his pacifistic philosophies and ways. And I made this distinction that femininity is associated with aggressiveness and meanness and that masculinity is associated with pacifism, tolerance, and niceness.

And I sought to rid myself of my femininity because I saw femininity as inherently mean, spiteful, manipulative, and aggressive. And I saw masculinity as inherently chilled out, tolerant, warm hearted, and calm. 

So it was a whole host of complicated relationships to girls/women who were dealing with internalized misogyny and taking that out on me that made me internalize misogyny and find more comfort in the masculine... part of which required me to toughen myself up and be non-reactive.

OOOoooffff I really resonate with all of this. That has basically been my relationship with femininity for like the first 14 years of my life and I've been unpacking layers of this since. I feel like especially in the media, the whole "i'm not like other girls" trope was everywhere and I picked up on that and used it as a defense mechanism for the bullying and alienation I dealt with as a kid. A ton of people are calling it out now to where it's basically a meme (tweet like a pick me) and there have been some really good analysis on the whole phenomenon since it's so common with women. Here are a couple of my favorite videos for anyone interested:

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Preety_India]

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

I definitely got a lot of that. I was made fun of a lot for being sensitive. Then, a lot of people would under-estimate me or try to infantilize me and let me win... low expectations because I was a little girl. And that pissed me off to no end as a child.

And then, in society at large, the feminine was always lampooned in some way. Making someone act exaggeratedly feminine (male or female) was always a way to poke fun. And there was this general implication of trite-ness to those who are feminine.

And there was a character trope that was really popular when I was growing up. It was the badass chick that was a very attractive tomboy. So, she was a beautiful girl on the outside but a guy on the inside... aesthetically feminine but morally masculine and implied to be superior to other girls who were feminine on the outside and feminine (in a toxic way) on the inside. And I really identified with that trope.

But at the same time, I had a lot of complicated and toxic relationships with women and girls back then. I was usually the target of orchestrated emotional bullying tactics that large groups of girls my age would engage in. 

So, I decided as a 8 or 9 year old that I was going to be like that trope, because I hated girls back then. I wanted to be as little like them as possible.

Add on top of that, that my dad is a really nice, warm-hearted guy. So, I always identified strongly with my dad and his pacifistic philosophies and ways. And I made this distinction that femininity is associated with aggressiveness and meanness and that masculinity is associated with pacifism, tolerance, and niceness.

And I sought to rid myself of my femininity because I saw femininity as inherently mean, spiteful, manipulative, and aggressive. And I saw masculinity as inherently chilled out, tolerant, warm hearted, and calm. 

So it was a whole host of complicated relationships to girls/women who were dealing with internalized misogyny and taking that out on me that made me internalize misogyny and find more comfort in the masculine... part of which required me to toughen myself up and be non-reactive.

So, I would have other children intentionally hurt me to show that I wouldn't flinch. And I became so competitive. I grew and individuated a lot as a result. But I fully left my femininity behind until I hit 20 and had my first awakening experience and realized that I had been repressing my femininity for a long time.

At that point, I didn't even believe that femininity was real. I thought it was a social construct, and that masculinity was too. And I had covered over my internalized misogyny with the belief of gender being fully societally constructed. And I had covered over my hatred of women with the idea that "I love everyone." So, it got pushed down a layer.

And then it sprang to the surface during the awakening. And I've been working on that issue ever since. And it came up again the other day on shrooms. And I felt so connected to my femininity and so soft. But there was a deep empowerment to it... a very queenly kind of feeling arose in me. And I didn't do any of the usual hedging that I would typically do when speaking of what I'm experiencing. 

Woah, I do not resonate with this at all. And not meaning to say in an offensive way, but just seeing and experiencing the complete opposite of this. 

I grew up with an abusive mom and a great caring dad. When I was in school, I had lot of girls being very protective of me. They saw me as a delicate fragile doll. A lot of the girls used to be very fond of me and I never had the experience of the "mean school girl." I never experienced female jealousy, except my mom all other women were kind to me, emotionally matured, cooperative, understanding and gentle with me. I used to switch my personality between a funny tomboy and a soft diminutive fragile woman, like the Cinderella types. I kinda grew up in male dominating culture where women felt repressed and oppressed, I always had to dress a particular way so I was always non sexual and never allowed to feel sexy around men. Wearing sexy clothes was like a taboo growing up. 

Like you, I associated men with tolerance, gentleness, empathy because my dad was like that. But this image was immediately shattered once I began dating guys who turned out to be assholes and would take pride in a male dominating culture. I saw women who were married being oppressed and dominated by their husbands and I would often feel sorry for how the women around me were exploited and mistreated by the men. 

So my image of men began to slowly shift towards the unfavorable. I began to see men as predatory and ruthless and unkind  and women as vulnerable, fragile, used and victimized. 

I never had a problem expressing my femininity (just the part where I wasn't allowed to be publicly sexual) I was always unabashedly feminine, I would never hide my vulnerability. I never felt the need to be masculine, in fact to this day, I always find a lot of trouble if someone told me to be masculine. It doesn't fit with my personality. 

Although I've come across the mean spiteful woman stereotype sometimes, I don't know what happens but I look at them with surprise and generally ignore them( I tend to either laugh at them or feel a bit of mercy for them) and they usually end up coming up to me and liking me in the end, because I kinda receive them without judgement. I try to be funny or generous with them. Because often times the mean spiteful nature of some  women can be just a tough exterior she is putting up to sort of protect herself or "don't mess with me" kind of energy. If a woman is genuinely spiteful and manipulative, I would definitely not appreciate that and I tend to be judgemental towards such women especially if they are socially destructive. But usually women seem to calm down in my presence instantly even if they were spiteful. My accepting and endearing energy sort of becomes like a healing process for them. Also the moment they sense my fragility and vulnerability, they tend to give up their spiteful behavior and become more sympathetic towards me. I've often noticed that. 

In general, I tend to give out a more "caring energy" towards women and a more "feminist fighty energy" towards men. This is because I've witnessed a lot of women in pain and distress throughout my life. The divine feminine energy in me tends to connect with the sufferings of women so that causes me to be more holistically connected with women in general and I tend to become more sisterly/motherly around women and it causes me to understand women better and sympathize with women. 

With me, feminism works slightly different. I see feminism as a version of Kali where I see women as those who need a lot of protection. Kali is seen as a protector of women in Hinduism. So I don't quite like modern feminists sort of constantly telling women to be strong and keep working. Because I see a lot of women as weak or fragile and I don't judge or chastize them for their weaknesses. So if a woman wants to do light work, and not take too much pressure, I'd happily want her to enjoy comfort. I'd not pressure her to be a strong woman but just let her embrace her fragility and accept it rather than reject it. 

So overall that's how I perceive women and feminism. I've this empowering attitude towards women combined with caring for their frailty and fragility. 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Preety_India

[Lyubov]

I'm not the biggest fan of Teal when she covers other topics but she really does put out some great insights on communicating the feminine is ways a man can understand and learn from. 

[Leo Gura]

David Deida explains all this nicely to guys in his books.

Make her feel like a girl and she will love you.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

David Deida explains all this nicely to guys in his books.

Make her feel like a girl and she will love you.

Does he speak any about the wounds/complications that keep a woman from aligning with her femininity? 

It's hard for me to imagine that a man (even David Deida) would really understand this to the point where he could guide another man through that terrain as there are so many individual and collective wounds around it. 

I find that many men who understand all this in theory, try to orient towards women and allow her to be in her feminine energy will tend to accidentally put lemon juice in the wounds around her femininity and she will close back up and go back into her masculine side to protect herself. 

I can see the problem arising where men try to be in their masculine and relating the masculine to being prickly, domineering, competitive with her, and repressive of the feminine in themselves (and as a result, others). But what's really needed is a gentle and subtle dominance... one that hits more subconsciously that comes more from the pure unconditioned energy of it. 

It's so much more than simply making a woman feel like a woman. It's more like making her feel like she's safe to be in her natural feminine energy around you, which is a bit more complicated.

[Mannyb]

33 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Does he speak any about the wounds/complications that keep a woman from aligning with her femininity? 

It's hard for me to imagine that a man (even David Deida) would really understand this to the point where he could guide another man through that terrain as there are so many individual and collective wounds around it. 

I find that many men who understand all this in theory, try to orient towards women and allow her to be in her feminine energy will tend to accidentally put lemon juice in the wounds around her femininity and she will close back up and go back into her masculine side to protect herself. 

I can see the problem arising where men try to be in their masculine and relating the masculine to being prickly, domineering, competitive with her, and repressive of the feminine in themselves (and as a result, others). But what's really needed is a gentle and subtle dominance... one that hits more subconsciously that comes more from the pure unconditioned energy of it. 

It's so much more than simply making a woman feel like a woman. It's more like making her feel like she's safe to be in her natural feminine energy around you, which is a bit more complicated.

From what I’m reading in his books it’s close to as good as it gets from a mans POV, my mom herself is loving his book Blue Truth. What worthwhile recommendations would you consider, from a woman’s POV? For both men and women.
 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Mannyb

[Emerald]

23 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

From what I’m reading in his books it’s close to as good as it gets from a mans POV, my mom herself is loving his book Blue Truth. What worthwhile recommendations would you consider, from a woman’s POV? For both men and women.
 

I don't have any book recommendations.

But my main advice involves connecting with the subtlety of authentic masculine energy... which always comes from the inside out and not the outside in. So, the best thing a man can do is to release attachments and aversions to cultural ideas of masculinity and to dive into himself and develop what is simply there.

So, it's more of a subtractive process, than it is an additive process. 

If a man's masculinity comes from the outside in, he will inadvertently shift himself away from his natural masculinity and it will take on a farcical and loud quality. And this "outside in" masculinity is often the thing that carries the lemon juice to women's feminine wounding because these cultural ideas around masculinity are often informed by the things that created the feminine wounding to begin with.

By contrast, "Inside out" masculinity is just very authentic to the particular man. And a woman will feel into a particular man to see whether or not he is a match to her. And it's a lot more down to Earth feeling. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Does he speak any about the wounds/complications that keep a woman from aligning with her femininity? 

It's hard for me to imagine that a man (even David Deida) would really understand this to the point where he could guide another man through that terrain as there are so many individual and collective wounds around it.

No, he speaks about it from the POV of what the guy needs to do from his side.

It is not a guy's job to be a woman's psychotherapist and heal her wounds. This would in fact be counter-productive since you ladies always complain about being accepted for not being perfect.

A man does not need to be guided into some deep feminine terrain, he just needs to be a man and bring out the feminine in her.

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

No, he speaks about it from the POV of what the guy needs to do from his side.

It is not a guy's job to be a woman's psychotherapist and heal her wounds.

yeah, she has to earn that right after about several of dating and having sex with her.

[Gesundheit]

I am literally sick of the generalizations.

There are no rules. Everyone is unique.

[StarStruck]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

David Deida explains all this nicely to guys in his books.

Make her feel like a girl and she will love you.

Or more precisely: make her feel like how her daddy made her feel.

Edited March 7, 2021 by StarStruck

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Or more precisely: make her feel like how her daddy made her feel.

Wet?

[StarStruck]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Wet?

I think a lot of girls just want a guy who is like their dad.

If her dad respected her, she will be looking for a guy who respects her. If her dad disrespected her, she will look for a guy who disrespects her. It is unconscious.

Some girls are just not drawn to a guy who makes her feel like a girl. They wanted to be treated like dirt. They want to chase. If they get treated like a girl they just get unconsciously repulsed.

 

[Preety_India]

@StarStruck

I don't think it is like this. 

I wanted a guy like my dad. But that's because my dad was very loving and kind. 

However if my dad was disrespectful to me, I wouldn't have wanted a guy like that. 

I have no idea why men constantly automatically assume that women want men who will mistreat them. 

How does it make logical sense to be happy around someone who mistreats you? I just can't wrap my head around this toxic way of thinking. 

There has got to be something mentally wrong with a woman who is happy being mistreated and gets attracted to that? Do you really want and appreciate a woman like that? 

They wanna get treated like dirt? Like what? 

Nope. You're dealing with a toxic woman if she even remotely suggests that she loves being mistreated. 

Look for healthy women who respect themselves and stop cherry picking examples of toxic women and then applying this unhealthy abnormal philosophy to all women. 

And then justifying it as her suffering trauma or something like that. 

I've suffered intense trauma and despite that I had the dignity of not wanting to ever be disrespected in relationships. 

C'mon guys raise your standards with what kind of women you are choosing to date 

Don't bring around these toxic examples and invalidate what a large majority of women feel. 

Im a woman and the woman you're describing does not represent me at all 

I'd never ever like a disrespectful asshole type of men. In fact I dumped them for the same reasons. 

 

 

[Surfingthewave]

Teal Swan assumes alot despite her disclaimers. 

@Emerald has made some really important points about this issue of male containment, particularly the role it can play around femininity if there are feminine wounds around safety.

Males will never know what it is like to feel unsafe as a woman, so it is important for females to explain this carefully if this is an issue in a relationship.

Teal swan is coming from a very heronormative angle assuming sexuality and gender is binary. In many relationships this isn't the case. I think more and more there is fluidity in these areas, which could be why both genders can struggle with relationship roles and particularly managing attachment difficulties. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Surfingthewave