Anyone into Languages??

[Striving for more]

@integral

2 hours ago, integral said:

@Striving for more Its memorization and regurgitation of symbols.

No it's not. 

It's called travelling, socializing & talking to people, immersing yourself in a new culture whilst picking up a language

memorizing words comes naturally through discussion & immersion, not rhote memorization. 

 

Lool niether chess nor music is more valuable than learning languages by a long stretch. Especially chess haha wtf. 

& By the way I love all three, but I can listen to music without learning it, I can not listen to that cute latino if I don't understand spanish. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Striving for more

[Striving for more]

4 minutes ago, integral said:

In the case of language learning, we are training the ability to memorize symbols and repeat them. That's the core repetitive action taken. That's what we are communicating to our mind system. 

No !!! 

That's just the school system! 

That's such a false reductive & limiting view of learning languages. 

You have not thought about nor experienced the process of learning a language deeply enough, or with the right mindset. 

It is a beautiful thing & one of the best things I would encourage anyone to do, 100X better than learning chess. 

You are sounding way too left brain autistic I must say. Love though.

[integral]

1 minute ago, Striving for more said:

It's called travelling, socializing & talking to people, immersing yourself in a new culture whilst picking up a language

That sound amazing, exposure to new culture is a must for development. What i was addressing was Rosetta Stone type of learning. 

[Striving for more]

11 minutes ago, integral said:

Flow states are language free.

This doesn't make sense. 

Flow states are just flow states. 

What about being flow state when you're picking up girls, socializing, having a discussion? That's all language related flow (verbal & non verbal)

Why is a flow state only limited to stuff like chess? 

 

When learning languages I always noticed strong flow state when doing exchanges & talking to foreigners once I'd gotten to a certain level. 

If you don't like lanuages i'd say just don't comment on this because you're spreading nonsense & discouraging people when it it's like the most beneficial thing. 

I am not a player by a long stretch yet I haven't built my game but whenever I have spoken french or spanish with a foreign girl abroad they absolutely loved it, If I had just tiny bit more game I'd have easily pulled, it just shows you're a more rounded, open minded & interesting person. 

In life u gotta go against the herd, everyone is only speaking english so I will speak 2/3/4. & This won't "take time or resources away from me", this process will be seamlessly integrated within my travel journey & lead to higher abundance of higher quality women, friendships & experiences. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Striving for more

[At awe]

17 minutes ago, integral said:

1 hour ago, At awe said:

Who ranks the value of learning a thing? Is it the person who’s learning or is it someone else’s ranking system? In case it’s someone else’s, who’s is the “best”? Why?

hmm we are trying to identify what training our mind is exposed to when learning a skill. There is good training and bad training, we need to be aware of what we are exposing our selves to. In the case of language learning, we are training the ability to memorize symbols and repeat them. That's the core repetitive action taken. That's what we are communicating to our mind system.

I can’t see it that way but interesting explanation, thanks?

[integral]

53 minutes ago, Striving for more said:

I can listen to music without learning it

Just like i can listen to Chinese with out understanding it.  

I agree with everything your saying, but its all off topic. The topic is "anyone into languages?" not "is diving into a new culture to self actualize a good idea?"

People that focus on learning a bunch of languages are not self actualizing the way you describe. What there doing is closer to rouge memorization and there critical thinking, strategic thinking and creative thinking are all underdeveloped. They value being a walking database.

Hes spending all his energy learning how to say the same thing 20 different ways, 

Hes learning about other cultures at the same time, but its not necessary to memorize a thousand symbols to get these insights. Asking the right questions will get the job done.

Hmm ok i am bias, i view all this socializing as 0 value, but for many its top priority. If your life revolves around being a social machine then learning languages is a great idea. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, integral said:

What im taking from this is, you've been holding back some heavy profanity.  

LOL. I was actually observing how my younger brother would communicate with my American stepmother when I had this insight  

 

6 hours ago, integral said:

Of course there are things to learn, but its not necessary to memorize a thousand symbols to get these insights. Asking the right questions will get the job done.

But then I could say that you don't have to memorize a thousand chess moves to get these insights. Be inclusive, not exclusive ❤️

 

6 hours ago, integral said:

its always been this way, as children we are trained to convert our raw thoughts into language, a slow and unnecessary extra step. Instead work with the raw thoughts directly. 

I think we can draw a distinction between pure imagination and symbolic thinking. I generally think about the latter when I think about "thinking", and that form of thinking requires language.

 

6 hours ago, integral said:

Flow states are language free. Musicians play music with out subvocalizing, chess masters calculate 20 moves into the future in silence. Mastery is in silence. By working with the raw thoughts directly, thinking becomes a rapid sequence of intuitions. Takes practice to move away from verbally asking a question to just knowing the question. Holding the knowing in awareness, instead of the symbols.  

Yup. I would say I'm an advanced guitar player (played for 12 years), and flow states are in my experience synonymous with meditation. There is a profound silence but at the same time a profound richness.

 

6 hours ago, integral said:

hmm we are trying to identify what training our mind is exposed to when learning a skill. There is good training and bad training, we need to be aware of what we are exposing our selves to. In the case of language learning, we are training the ability to memorize symbols and repeat them. That's the core repetitive action taken. That's what we are communicating to our mind system. 

There are many aspects of mind that can be trained. Language is one of them. Being good with language can be very useful. Be careful not to reduce a rich phenomena like mind down to something very general like "performance" or "power" and invalidating any approach outside of those metrics. It's all good  

Edited February 27, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[integral]

19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

But then I could say that you don't have to memorize a thousand chess moves to get these insights. Be inclusive, not exclusive ❤️

Chess is a competitive strategic critical thinking game, the mind is being exposed to problems to solve not moves to memorize. Language acquisition is not directly training critical/creative thinking skills, chess and music do. Sports trains kinaesthetic intelligence and other lines, languages acquisition does not. They all train different lines of development. We can map out the lines of a development the practice of thing will train. 

 

19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think we can draw a distinction between pure imagination and symbolic thinking. I generally think about the latter when I think about "thinking", and that form of thinking requires language.

hmmm not sure the latter requires language, Language is not needed to know something. It can be represented in the mind with out language, even with out imagery. 

 

19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There are many aspects of mind that can be trained. Language is one of them. Being good with language can be very useful. Be careful not to reduce a rich phenomena like mind down to something very general like "performance" or "power" and invalidating any approach outside of those metrics. It's all good  

What lines of development are needed to be good with languages? What general skills is it training? 

Edited February 27, 2021 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

58 minutes ago, integral said:

Chess is a competitive strategic critical thinking game, the mind is being exposed to problems to solve not moves to memorize. Language acquisition is not directly training critical/creative thinking skills, chess and music do.

You can't boil language acquisition down to memorization or separate it from problem solving. There are many factors at play, although it's true that memory is a central part of it, but that's true for chess aswell. Magnus Carlsen is known to have memorized all the moves of every single game he has ever played. Don't you think that has an impact on his performance?

I'll again point out the difference between a reductive (exclusive) view of mind and an inclusive view. "Brain power" or whatever term you want to throw at it (problem solving, critical thinking etc.) is just one aspect of mind; albeit a central aspect of mind, I agree; but my point is there is more than that.

 

1 hour ago, integral said:

hmmm not sure the latter requires language, Language is not needed to know something. It can be represented in the mind with out language, even with out imagery. 

What is language but a collection of symbols? What is symbolic thinking without language?  

 

1 hour ago, integral said:

What lines of development are needed to be good with languages? What general skills is it training? 

Be mindful of the framing here. You're invoking a rather narrow slice of developmental psychology ("lines of development" I'm assuming refers to SDi). I'm not limiting myself to that framework when talking about the mind. As I said, knowing different languages opens you up to different cultures and a larger view of life. A larger perspective is synonymous with higher consciousness and a more flexible mind.

[integral]

On 2/27/2021 at 0:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

You can't boil language acquisition down to memorization or separate it from problem solving. There are many factors at play, although it's true that memory is a central part of it, but that's true for chess aswell. Magnus Carlsen is known to have memorized all the moves of every single game he has ever played. Don't you think that has an impact on his performance?

Ah yes but this is a misconception, at the top level of any sports they optimize every detail to get an advantage. Memory becomes important only past 2300+ rating level, before that its 99% problem solving and years of hard work rewiring ones thought process. 

On 2/27/2021 at 0:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

I'll again point out the difference between a reductive (exclusive) view of mind and an inclusive view. "Brain power" or whatever term you want to throw at it (problem solving, critical thinking etc.) is just one aspect of mind; albeit a central aspect of mind, I agree; but my point is there is more than that.

I believe you but im not seeing it, can you go into detail abit? 

On 2/27/2021 at 0:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

What is language but a collection of symbols? What is symbolic thinking without language?  

lol well sure if we define it that way, every system has its own language. The language of music... example.

But was ramanujan's intuition/thought process experienced all in the language of mathematics? There is a way to go about with out symbols, is the subconscious mind really operating all in symbolic thinking? If we work only with subconscious thought streams... the bulk of thinking becomes language agnostic, non-symbolic. Only the end result is a idea represented in symbols.  

On 2/27/2021 at 0:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Be mindful of the framing here. You're invoking a rather narrow slice of developmental psychology ("lines of development" I'm assuming refers to SDi). I'm not limiting myself to that framework when talking about the mind. As I said, knowing different languages opens you up to different cultures and a larger view of life. A larger perspective is synonymous with higher consciousness and a more flexible mind.

Right most people who know multiple language just come from multi-lingual families/environment. There was no deliberate training. Hard to say if learning a new language really gets does gains. I know italian, french and english, got to say it produced the least valuable insights, it overwhelming doesn't beat deep contemplation. (that chess specifically trains) lol... its a challenge to learn how to play music with out a musical instrument, just like its going to be a challenge to refine thinking with out a thinking instrument. Is learning a new language really the best instrument for perspective training? 

Edited February 28, 2021 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, integral said:

Ah yes but this is a misconception, at the top level of any sports they optimize every detail to get an advantage. Memory becomes important only past 2300+ rating level, before that its 99% problem solving and years of hard work rewiring ones thought process. 

No matter how many exceptions you got in your hat, memorization is actually a type of problem solving strategy, and you can't solve problems without using your memory either  

 

52 minutes ago, integral said:

I believe you but im not seeing it, can you go into detail abit? 

If mind is reducible to problem solving, then let's throw out the entire field of cognitive science, neuroscience and psychology and call it problemology. There is virtually an infinite amount of different conceptual lenses that you can use to investigate the mind that you're disregarding.

 

45 minutes ago, integral said:

every system has its own language.

The system itself doesn't have to be based on language, but every description or representation of a system is based on language, and language is based on symbols. You can't talk about something or represent something without using symbols. However, I'm not going to say that language "is nothing but symbols" (that would again be reductive - I was being somewhat hyperbolic earlier).

 

50 minutes ago, integral said:

Is learning a new language really the best instrument for perspective training? 

"Perspective training" is not a straightforward concept. You can't separate perspective from content. Training your perspective also involves accumulating content which can be contrasted with other content. In other words, the muscle of perspective needs food in order to grow. A perspective cannot be expressed before it's manifested in something concrete, and the particular language you learn can be a part of that.

You could say that how large your perspective is depends on the way you compare and contrast different content, and as the amount of content increases, the amount of potential connections, combinations, comparisons and contrasts increase exponentially. This is why it's important to balance theory and spiritual practice, because they compliment eachother. Spiritual practice flexes the perspective muscle and theory feeds the muscle.

[Arcangelo]

It's better to learn a new language than playing chess.@integral  Are you trolling?

 

[integral]

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

No matter how many exceptions you got in your hat, memorization is actually a type of problem solving strategy, and you can't solve problems without using your memory either  

but CARL, not everything can be reduced to memorization. Deliberately memorizing something and remembering a pattern  is not the same. One is training the other is recall.  During the process of wracking your mind on a hard problem, lessons/patterns will be remembered that will come back for the next problem, this is not practicing memorization, its practicing problem solving with a bonus of remembering the content. 

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

If mind is reducible to problem solving, then let's throw out the entire field of cognitive science, neuroscience and psychology and call it problemology. There is virtually an infinite amount of different conceptual lenses that you can use to investigate the mind that you're disregarding.

Problem solving is a general term, everything can be framed as a problem to be solved? Walking the path of a question. cognitive science, neuroscience and psychology are specific sets of content. 

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

The system itself doesn't have to be based on language, but every description or representation of a system is based on language, and language is based on symbols. You can't talk about something or represent something without using symbols. However, I'm not going to say that language "is nothing but symbols" (that would again be reductive - I was being somewhat hyperbolic earlier).

Sounds good.

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

"Perspective training" is not a straightforward concept. You can't separate perspective from content. Training your perspective also involves accumulating content which can be contrasted with other content. In other words, the muscle of perspective needs food in order to grow. A perspective cannot be expressed before it's manifested in something concrete, and the particular language you learn can be a part of that.

This subject is meta-persective analysis, we are doing what your describing is impossible, separating content from perspectives. 

Learning to play any instrument/system trains general skills that apply generally to any system, its not tied down to that specif system. Learning how to learn applies generally to all learning. There are general components of the mind that can be targeted for training. Perspective "solving" can be generally trained. A simple example is to ask a high quality question that promotes perspective exploration.

Meta-anything is not dependent on the content of the lower layer its meta of. 

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

You could say that how large your perspective is depends on the way you compare and contrast different content

This can be targeted for training.

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

and as the amount of content increases, the amount of potential connections, combinations, comparisons and contrasts increase exponentially

Sounds like Extroverted Intuition. The process of forming new connections needs to be deliberately practiced. If this practice happend in childhood its easy to be forgotten (INTP), where the assumption is made in adult hood that the mind works this way for everyone. Connecting, combining, comparing all are general skills. Again need to be target for training. Most people never do Ne. 

The content is just dead weight if the right seeds aren't planted. 

If the goals is to train multi-perspectival thinking, the focus will be on the operating system not the software. Learning a new language is mostly content learning with out general skill training.  

On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 PM, Carl-Richard said:

This is why it's important to balance theory and spiritual practice, because they compliment each other. Spiritual practice flexes the perspective muscle and theory feeds the muscle.

I think we are in agreement, Learning a new language is mostly theory, Learning chess or music is mostly practice. Both are needed. Got to say that a new language is a mediocre form of theory, better off putting the equivalent effort in reading 10 high quality books. 

Learning guitar at a high level played a major role in your cognition, are you aware this happend? Can you break it down and discribe exactly why? what it trained? 

Edited March 2, 2021 by integral

[Striving for more]

On 28/02/2021 at 6:25 PM, integral said:

Is learning a new language really the best instrument for perspective training? 

Yes.

I agree with you that Rosetta Stone & " Timothy says hello in 20 different languages" is stupid & pointless. 

Learning languages completely alters your perspective in 2 ways : 

1. Because you can now engage more with the new country or culture which expands your horizon on lifestyle, culture, social customs ect.. 

2, Because your thinking capacity is now expanded as each language bounds to an extent how you think. 

I'm surprised you are bilingual because most people feel really lucky that they grew up that way. 

I am assuming you are a strong introvert / anti social type ? 

 

[Striving for more]

1 hour ago, integral said:

Learning a new language is mostly theory, Learning chess or music is mostly practice. Both are needed. Got to say that a new language is a mediocre form of theory, better off putting the equivalent effort in reading 10 high quality books. 

 

But again learning a language can be a lot of practice. 

You learn it talking to others. 

There will need to be some route / theory practice, but you quickly get that out the way & then everything else you pick up naturally through conversation, environment, immersion. 

I like playing chess but it's more like an addictive hobby that makes me feel guilty. 

When I practice Spanish I just feel my future life getting 1% better each day. Chess does nothing for you life. 

Honestly who cares so much about "training the mind" as much as a better life. 

Strategically Learning a new language (that will be relevant to your lifestyle)  + travel = > Interesting variety of friends, beautiful women, potentially > money, > confidence, > cultural experience. 

Playing chess = > addiction, feeling more shit about yourself. 

 

I do agree with you though that I have no interest in learning Arabic or Chinese.

This is a complete waste of time for me. 

But advanced Spanish, some basic French & maybe basic Italian would be worth it. Because I like Mediterranean & American culture. Plan to live around these countries. 

I don't see how anyone could argue that this would not be beneficial for me. I don't want to live there & only speak English, because that's just boring. 

But yeah learning "20 languages" vaguely I can't be fucked. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Striving for more

[Striving for more]

On 28/02/2021 at 8:26 PM, Arcangelo said:

It's better to learn a new language than playing chess.@integral  Are you trolling?

 

LOOOOOOOOOOL exactly wtfff. 

I actually love to play chess. But I see it as an addiction like playing video games. I need to cut it down tbh. 

Gonna play a game now as I feel shit about myself loool. 

I mean I hope chess is beneficial cause I play it way too often. 

Maybe we should agree both are beneficial. I would never agree that chess is more beneficial. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Striving for more

[integral]

@Arcangelo @Striving for more Chess mastery not playing chess for fun. We are talking about walking the path of mastery and all the lesson that come with. 

1 hour ago, Striving for more said:

2, Because your thinking capacity is now expanded as each language bounds to an extent how you think. 

This is imagination, you have no idea that it will do any of that. 

1 hour ago, Striving for more said:

I like playing chess but it's more like an addictive hobby that makes me feel guilty. 

Gonna play a game now as I feel shit about myself loool. 

Your doing it wrong, in every way. This has nothing to do with chess mastery. Just like how people learn new languages in school and get nothing out of it. Rosette stone style. 

1 hour ago, Striving for more said:

Honestly who cares so much about "training the mind" as much as a better life. 

What is self actualization but training the mind? 

1 hour ago, Striving for more said:

Strategically Learning a new language (that will be relevant to your lifestyle)  + travel = > Interesting variety of friends, beautiful women, potentially > money, > confidence, > cultural experience. 

Agree, but this is conflation, there is no need to learn a new language to do any of this. 

Playing all this chess, whats your rating? Have you learned how to accurately calculate? 

 

[Jake Johnson]

I have recently begun a self study of German using a software package. I read an item online about a translation of an ancient Persian poem and how the translation really couldn't convey the real feeling of the original version. The point being that everyone should learn at least a second language as it gives you a second perspective. I decided on German as it is supposed to be one of the easier languages for a native English speaker. Eventually I will probably move on to another maybe more difficult language.

[Striving for more]

@integral

On 02/03/2021 at 5:49 PM, integral said:

Playing all this chess, whats your rating? Have you learned how to accurately calculate? 

wydm accurately calculate? 

I'm not sure what my rating is. 

[Kundalini Cataclysm]

I speak German (mother tongue) and English completely fluently and Finnish pretty fluently within my vocabulary. Know some basic Swedish and French aswell. Rudimentary bits of Spanish and Latin can also be found in my mind.