How the voice in the mind is not a self?

[Javfly33]

Ive had multiple "awakenings" where that voice seems just a thought, and that's it. Like a colour you see, or a sound you hear.

BUT, most of the time, like 99.99% of the time, that voice seems a self. (And it's me, obviously).

But this voice actually started contemplating itself just a few seconds ago. It accepted that it feels very real. "How this is not a self?" The voice said.

Why does it feel so real? It seems very real that THAT is a self and it's me.

 

[Moksha]

Thoughts only seem autonomous when you lose yourself in them, and identify with them. In those moments of awakening that you have experienced, who is the Watcher of the thoughts that come and go? Clearly, it is not the thoughts themselves, which the Watcher cannot even control. As the Watcher, are you aware of the vast space around and between every thought? Do you realize yourself as that very space in which the thoughts arise?

[The0Self]

And who knows that? If anything is a self, it certainly cannot be the known, because the knower automatically trumps it in that regard. But the knower is also known, or more accurately, assumed. Awareness synonymous with absolute emptiness is the only candidate for a self, but since it is empty of existence it is obviously not a self.

However something appears is a dead giveaway it is actually not that way.

Edited February 24, 2021 by The0Self

[Mason Riggle]

@The0Self have you ever considered that 'you' are everything that is 'normally' considered to be 'not the self'? 

It's not that there's not a 'you'.. it's that 'you' are 'all of it'.   The Universe experiencing itself from a certain perspective. 

[GreenWoods]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

BUT, most of the time, like 99.99% of the time, that voice seems a self. (And it's me, obviously).

Do you believe that you are literally that voice/thoughts?

Or do you believe there is a seperate self who has/thinks these thoughts and you are that seperate self?

[Javfly33]

6 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Do you believe that you are literally that voice/thoughts?

Or do you believe there is a seperate self who has/thinks these thoughts and you are that seperate self?

I think I have trascended the second.

But the first one yeah it feels very like that, very real.

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Thoughts only seem autonomous when you lose yourself in them, and identify with them. In those moments of awakening that you have experienced, who is the Watcher of the thoughts that come and go? Clearly, it is not the thoughts themselves, which the Watcher cannot even control. As the Watcher, are you aware of the vast space around and between every thought? Do you realize yourself as that very space in which the thoughts arise?

I agree but why most of the time none of that is actual.

And no matter what when the internal voice arise I think that's me. Feels very real 

[The0Self]

15 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@The0Self have you ever considered that 'you' are everything that is 'normally' considered to be 'not the self'? 

It's not that there's not a 'you'.. it's that 'you' are 'all of it'.   The Universe experiencing itself from a certain perspective. 

Yes. The true self = that there truly is no separate self. Everything = nothing.

[Mason Riggle]

@The0Self yes, no 'separate' self.   Often this is confused with 'no self'.   While Everything does = Nothing, there seems to be 'Something', because 'nothing/everything' doesn't 'seem' like anything.  As long as there is 'seeming', there seems to be a 'you', and it's possible to be incredibly confused about what 'you' seem to be. 

 

[GreenWoods]

25 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Do you believe that you are literally that voice/thoughts?

Or do you believe there is a seperate self who has/thinks these thoughts and you are that seperate self?

 

16 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I think I have trascended the second.

But the first one yeah it feels very like that, very real.

oh that's interesting. For me it was the other way around. I first got over the first and then the second.

 

So you believe you are literally that voice/thoughts.

All thoughts in general or only specific thoughts, like "I" or "me"?

If only specific thoughts, then what happens when you have other thoughts like "apple". Are you dead during these moments?

If all thoughts in general, then what happens when you have no thoughts (even if you can't stop your thoughts, there is a very short gap inbetween thoughts)? Are you dead during these moments?

If you are dead during these moments then how can you experience / be aware of it?

 

To see through the illusion of the first one it's basically as simple as that:

Are you literally these thoughts?

Or are you AWARE OF these thoughts?

 

This doesn't break through the illusion of the seperate self yet. In my experience, identification with body sensations (particularly in the head and maybe chest area) are most responsible for the illusion of a seperate self.

For that try to locate yourself. With your finger.

Basically the first of these exercices:

Exercise 3 and 8 are quite good too.

You must view body sensations the same way you view a chair or a sound. All sensations are on the same level. You don't perceive a wall through that body.

A body and a wall are two sensations happening beside each other. You are conscious of both of them. You are not closer to the body sensations than you are to a wall.

 

Tell me where exactly you are stuck.

[Javfly33]

7 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

 You are conscious of both of them. You are not closer to the body sensations than you are to a wall.

 

Tell me where exactly you are stuck.

I think I'm stuck right there. It doesn't feel like that.

It seems I'm inside the body. Seems the awareness is being projected from the body!

[The0Self]

9 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@The0Self yes, no 'separate' self.   Often this is confused with 'no self'.   While Everything does = Nothing, there seems to be 'Something', because 'nothing/everything' doesn't 'seem' like anything.  As long as there is 'seeming', there seems to be a 'you', and it's possible to be incredibly confused about what 'you' seem to be. 

 

Okay. Splitting hairs I would say. Feel free to ignore this, but I would humbly add:

There exists only infinite levels of distortion. I AM is the highest truth and the root delusion, timelessly. Reality is a paradox. Liberation is seeing emptiness -- nothing is ever as it appears; it merely appears, uncaused; neither real nor unreal.

Do enough self inquiry and you may change your tune about there being any self at all.

To be confused about what you seem to be, there has to seemingly be a you. If there is any judgement at all, there is a seeming you. When there's just what is, there's no room for anything else, it's just gone forever -- what would come back?

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

It seems I'm inside the body. Seems the awareness is being projected from the body!

Does the body not appear in awareness, along with all these thoughts? They appear just like the sky appears.

[Mason Riggle]

@The0Self whatever there 'is', is what you are, always. 

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Does the body not appear in awareness, along with all these thoughts? They appear just like the sky appears.

Interesting.

Very interesting.

13 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

 

 

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@The0Self whatever there 'is', is what you are, always. 

What is, is what is not. What you are, is what you are not. That won't help. This conversation serves no purpose.

[GreenWoods]

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

I think I'm stuck right there. It doesn't feel like that.

It seems I'm inside the body. Seems the awareness is being projected from the body!

That illusion is a tough one.

you are identified with body sensations. 

Some questions:

• are you all body sensations. Including your little toe? What would happen to your sense of self if you cut off your legs?
• what happens if you are not aware of certain body sensations?( like for example you haven't been aware of the body sensation of your little left finger, until now). Are you dead during these moments?
• are you literally the body sensations or are you AWARE OF body sensations?

And try to view body sensations the same way as a wall, happening beside each other.  Do exercise 3 and 8.

For me it has simply been about doing it over and over and over again.

All these exercises make kinda sense, but it's extremely subtle in your experience. Too subtle to break through the illusion of a seperate self.

So it's just a matter of keeping doing it. Gradually it becomes less subtle and more obvious. And you make the shift in perspective.

Everything happening withing consciousness. All appearances happening beside other appearances, and not prior to other. 

 

[Mason Riggle]

@The0Self well, I never said what you are saying.  I said, "you are what you normally consider to be not you".   As you said, there is no separation. It's all you.
 

[GreenWoods]

8 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

you are identified with body sensations. 

Oh I just realized you said it seems like you are "inside the body". If that's the case, and you are not at all identified with body sensations, then  try to locate yourself inside your body. Where exactly are you? 

Try to be aware of that spot. Now it just becomes another sensation withing awareness/consciousness.

 

 

Consciousness is not something apart from a sensation. Viewing that sensation from a metaperspective. Consciousness is that sensation! Thus you are everywhere.

Edited February 24, 2021 by GreenWoods

[The0Self]

@Mason Riggle I feel it pertinent to add, for whoever might see this: what you are, does not possess a self. If it seems like it does, that's an illusion, seemingly brought about by the experience that this is really happening -- what is overlooked, is that it is also not happening.

[GreenWoods]

@Javfly33 Do these exercises while tripping.

 

For me, exhaustion also results in a deeper nondual awareness. (not comparable to psychedelics of course).

Just running as quickly as you can for 2 minutes does the trick (once your pulse is somewhat lowered again).

I get similar effects from:

• being tired. sleep deprivation 
• breathwork
• eating a very large meal
• being sick
• orgasm + ejaculation