Does development make awakening easier?

[Vision]

By development, I mean developmental stages.

 

Would it be easier to be awakened at say, Stage Yellow/Turquoise than at Stage Blue/Orange? Since you're not clinging as much to your ego as the latter? 

[erik8lrl]

Yes.

[Dark_White]

Each and every stage has their own similar needs look at the psychology needs down below and compare it with the sd stages and the lower the stage the lower level their needs is. As simple as that! 

For an orange person they have to fulfill their material needs and they should ensure their safety, so it'll stop them from pursuing enlightenment if a person valids their own safety more than reality. And it also true that nothing is good or bad with these stages. So nothing bad or good in pursuing safety or enlightenment.

[Vision]

4 hours ago, Dark_White said:

Each and every stage has their own similar needs look at the psychology needs down below and compare it with the sd stages and the lower the stage the lower level their needs is. As simple as that! 

For an orange person they have to fulfill their material needs and they should ensure their safety, so it'll stop them from pursuing enlightenment if a person valids their own safety more than reality. And it also true that nothing is good or bad with these stages. So nothing bad or good in pursuing safety or enlightenment.

While Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Spiral Dynamics have some overlap, they point to different things. 

 

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - Human Needs

Spiral Dynamics - Values and Worldview, interpretation of reality 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, but if you think you can rely on development to awaken you, you'll be very disappointed. It won't.

If you want awakening, the only way to get it is to work your ass for it with intense focus and clarity of purpose.

No hardcore spiritual practices, no awaken. It's that simple.

Which is the reason 99.9999% of people are not awake and will never be awake.

[Dark_White]

@Vision i mean in my pov it fits so well together. Take this approach the stages until red are all about the psychological needs. From blue to orange are always about a security and don't trying to go away from their safety net and their own attachments which is safety for their identification. Green is more like social and accepting every views. Yellow they develop their sense of self and this time their esteem needs met, so no any external validity means for them. Finally, turquoise is all about knowing themselves which is the ultimate reality.

 

Yeah its my way of interpreting not so objective on that but i seem it fits together well.

[Nahm]

6 hours ago, Vision said:

By development, I mean developmental stages.

Would it be easier to be awakened at say, Stage Yellow/Turquoise than at Stage Blue/Orange? Since you're not clinging as much to your ego as the latter? 

Awakened = there’s no ‘you’ nor ‘your ego’. 

“Clinging as much to your ego” = thought attachment = pretending there’s a separate self. 

You’re actually supporting your suffering with complicated theories and models which have nothing to do with thought attachment. 

[StarStruck]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but if you think you can rely on development to awaken you, you'll be very disappointed. It won't.

If you want awakening, the only way to get it is to work your ass for it with intense focus and clarity of purpose.

No hardcore spiritual practices, no awaken. It's that simple.

Which is the reason 99.9999% of people are not awake and will never be awake.

What about if you are a traumatized person? Is it not better for that person to develop and clean his psyche before taking psychedelics? I took psychedelics several times and most of them were bad trips.

[allislove]

No.

[OctagonOctopus]

@Vision

I feel it is more so the other way around awakening makes development easier, awakening gets you to realize what is true, & development is a lot easier when you are in line with what is true. You are painting a picture called you, and it is perfectly what it is, to change it is alright & to not change it is alright. Not being attached to needing to change or needing to stay the same makes everything a lot more enjoyable.

Developing yourself can also make awakening easier as well, as there might be less neurotic stuff going on, but it is harder to develop a self when you believe you are a self. 

[The0Self]

Even though awakening often occurs after a whole lot of spiritual obsession, I'm not convinced that means the awakening was the result of that. In fact, upon awakening, it's recognized it was always that way -- there was never anyone there. Just identification with an idea of who you are. "I am awakened" is an example of a perfect oxymoron.

Edited February 23, 2021 by The0Self

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, StarStruck said:

What about if you are a traumatized person? Is it not better for that person to develop and clean his psyche before taking psychedelics? I took psychedelics several times and most of them were bad trips.

It's always a good idea to develop.

Don't make it a false binary choice.

Do both with passion.

[Vision]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but if you think you can rely on development to awaken you, you'll be very disappointed. It won't.

If you want awakening, the only way to get it is to work your ass for it with intense focus and clarity of purpose.

No hardcore spiritual practices, no awaken. It's that simple.

Which is the reason 99.9999% of people are not awake and will never be awake.

In this case, the most effective way to awaken would be to supplement spiritual practices (for awakening) with exhausting the desires you have given the developmental stage you’re at? 

 

This would mean that it’s less effective to devote your entire life to meditation to awaken because your developmental stage is holding you back.

 

The way I see it is:

Awakening makes you realise this is a video game.

Development makes the video game better and more fun.

 

Would you agree with this proposition? @Leo Gura

Edited February 24, 2021 by Vision

[Vision]

14 hours ago, Dark_White said:

@Vision i mean in my pov it fits so well together. Take this approach the stages until red are all about the psychological needs. From blue to orange are always about a security and don't trying to go away from their safety net and their own attachments which is safety for their identification. Green is more like social and accepting every views. Yellow they develop their sense of self and this time their esteem needs met, so no any external validity means for them. Finally, turquoise is all about knowing themselves which is the ultimate reality.

 

Yeah its my way of interpreting not so objective on that but i seem it fits together well.

I never argued with that  

 

Yes, notice how all developmental models are so similar. Whether it’s Clare’s model, Susan’s model, Gebser’s model, Maslow’s model. 

 

They all develop in essentially the exact same order, but they point to different things and are used for different reasons.

 

Maslow’s model - Human needs, can be used to identify your needs 

Clare Grave’s model - Values and worldview. Can be used to explain society and human’s behaviour.

Susan’s model - Self identity. Can be used to predict human behaviour

 

14 hours ago, Nahm said:

Awakened = there’s no ‘you’ nor ‘your ego’. 

“Clinging as much to your ego” = thought attachment = pretending there’s a separate self. 

You’re actually supporting your suffering with complicated theories and models which have nothing to do with thought attachment. 

We can use models and theories as a staircase though 

 

14 hours ago, allislove said:

No.

How?

 

14 hours ago, OctagonOctopus said:

@Vision

I feel it is more so the other way around awakening makes development easier, awakening gets you to realize what is true, & development is a lot easier when you are in line with what is true. You are painting a picture called you, and it is perfectly what it is, to change it is alright & to not change it is alright. Not being attached to needing to change or needing to stay the same makes everything a lot more enjoyable.

Developing yourself can also make awakening easier as well, as there might be less neurotic stuff going on, but it is harder to develop a self when you believe you are a self. 

Yes, this is true. Ken Wilber says it himself, that Waking Up makes Growing Up faster and easier. 

I want to know if Growing Up makes Waking Up faster and easier. 

 

[Nahm]

@Vision

For sure. I’m pointing to the distinction of identification. What you experience, and ‘who’ you really are. The frames, models and theories are building a staircase of identification. It seems. Maybe not. It’s easy to get caught up identifying by / with them. 

[Vision]

@Nahm

Yes, of course. I try my best to look at these models as merely tools. 

[allislove]

5 hours ago, Vision said:

How?

Basically was nodding to the Nahm's reply:

20 hours ago, Nahm said:

You’re actually supporting your suffering with complicated theories and models which have nothing to do with thought attachment. 

"Simplicity is very difficult for twisted minds." – ACIM

[Vision]

19 minutes ago, allislove said:

Basically was nodding to the Nahm's reply:

What do you mean?

[allislove]

20 minutes ago, Vision said:

What do you mean?

Agreeing with the Nahm's reply, like so:



Seems like the complicated theories/models/levels are just reinforcing the belief in a separate person.  

[Nahm]

@allislove