Meditation Is Not Necessary

[Flowzo]

Considering this is the forum where the owner said "You cannot follow my channel and not be meditating" I know this will be met with skepticism. I am going to get you to start asking some serious questions.

Why do you want to meditate?

Who is doing the meditating?

Where is the "I" that will inevitably arise to give an answer?

I'm guessing that when you asked those questions no answer was given, and boom there you have it. You are now enlightened haha. When I say meditation is not necessary, I mean that it is not necessary for living a fulfilling and happy life. Mostly because the one who you think needs to be meditating in order to improve itself is exactly the one who is in the way of you achieving that happiness. That "I" is merely a thought fiction that was conditioned in the mind at an early age. It's no more real than the idea of Santa Claus.

[Rakesh]

This dude I have been following for a while says "You are already enlightened, but the mind is too chaotic to realize it. Saying that to people has no effect, however, therefor practice is neccessary."

[AlwaysBeNice]

The act of looking within it self is an act of meditation imo.

But in my experience, self-inquiry alone, as in something you ask yourself a few times and look is just not going to cut it, maybe for beings almost naturally enlightened anyways. You can say it worked for Ramana Maharshi but he spend a few decades(?) sitting in stillness/silence while others would sometimes help him put food in his mouth.

Also Ramana himself, who popularized this method, often recommended 1-2 hours a day of meditation and being focused on the self during the rest of the day. 

[Flowzo]

1 minute ago, Rakesh said:

This dude I have been following for a while says "You are already enlightened, but the mind is too chaotic to realize it. Saying that to people has no effect, however, therefor practice is neccessary."

I think I know who you are talking about, is his name Gary Weber? To a certain extent he is right but it will only delay the liberation. If you want more help just pm me

[Rakesh]

Did not ask for help haha wtf and no. His name is Rali. His channel is called naked reality on youtube. He is new.

[Flowzo]

1 minute ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

The act of looking within it self is an act of meditation imo.

But in my experience, self-inquiry alone, as in something you ask yourself a few times and look is just not going to cut it, maybe for beings almost naturally enlightened anyways. You can say it worked for Ramana Maharshi but he spend a few decades(?) sitting in stillness/silence while others would sometimes help him put food in his mouth.

Also Ramana himself, who popularized this method, often recommended 1-2 hours a day of meditation and being focused on the self during the rest of the day. 

Very true, but he also taught that it was completely unnecessary to the liberation. The mind likes to have the story of there being something that it can do and get very good at, but it's all fiction being added to the "I" that is behind it all. I'd say if anything it makes it more difficult because now there is all this determination to become a great meditator and reach enlightenment.

[Flowzo]

46 minutes ago, Rakesh said:

Did not ask for help haha wtf and no. His name is Rali. His channel is called naked reality on youtube. He is new.

Oh never heard of him, that's what Gary Weber says too.

Edit: Just looked him up. I like the message he is spreading.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Flowzo

[Dodo]

Naked reality said you cant go through walls, he basically is not conciousness, because he doesn't recognize that he has gone through walls and he is doing it even now. How is he claiming to be enlightened

[Orange]

15 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Naked reality said you cant go through walls, he basically is not conciousness, because he doesn't recognize that he has gone through walls and he is doing it even now. How is he claiming to be enlightened

Can you elaborate on that? How is he going through walls?

[Rakesh]

52 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Naked reality said you cant go through walls, he basically is not conciousness, because he doesn't recognize that he has gone through walls and he is doing it even now. How is he claiming to be enlightened

Dude are you trolling or did you just go full retard?

 

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Flowzo said:

When I say meditation is not necessary, I mean that it is not necessary for living a fulfilling and happy life.

Can you live life happily for ever ? Are you ready to encounter old age, death ? Can't you see that humanity is in a miserable condition ? Why we need police, courts, jails, military, nuclear bombs, mental asylums, psychiatrists, millions of hospitals ? 

Men was not peaceful, healthy, loving and intelligent. We now need a new humanity. 

[AxelK]

What you seem to misunderstand is that enlightenment can't be reached by logic and rationality, while your post seems to say it can . I can understand that "I" do not exist, in a logical sense but its something else to experience it.  You need to experience it, and meditation is a way you can experience it. IIRC, Leo has stated this numerous times.

Edited October 10, 2016 by AxelK

[Soulbass]

In latest Leo's video, I though he was describing my daily life, without "meditation".

Leo said once "every experience, is a meditation experience".

I've heard once from someone enlightened (I think he was enlightened because he was answering my questions before I ask them, like reading in my mind) that meditation can heal, but it also can hurt (talking of heatlh).

I think that in the end, focusing on a meditation practice is not the point, but it is a "tool" for awareness.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Soulbass

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Orange said:

Can you elaborate on that? How is he going through walls?

Its simple really. Is he the body? No. Is he the nothingness? Yes. Is nothingness going through a wall right now? (insert anything in place of wall). And there you have it

Thats why Sadhguru has said he can go through walls. Like how is it that one can say they are enlightened and then keep identifying as the form they are. I am just saying these things from watching him respond to leos video. He seemed like he has all the knowledge. And yet he still hasnt accepted in reality that he is not the body and that he is limitless.

[Orange]

@Dodoster ah ok , I think I see what you mean..so you are looking at it from this perspective : He is not limited to the body so he is everything and he is even the wall itself, he is the bricks etc and actually he doesn't really exist in reality outside of ego so he is nothing and there are no labels whatsoever outside of ego so nothing exists. ..right? Correct me if I'm wrong

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Orange said:

@Dodoster ah ok , I think I see what you mean..so you are looking at it from this perspective : He is not limited to the body so he is everything and he is even the wall itself, he is the bricks etc and actually he doesn't really exist in reality outside of ego so he is nothing and there are no labels whatsoever outside of ego so nothing exists. ..right? Correct me if I'm wrong

Your comment brang me more clarity on the matter also, tnx. So our god, human creator is the ego. But that god is a liar, and since we want truth, we are trying to defeat our god - the ego.

Remember the story about brahman, vishnu and krishna? And how brahman lied basicly and was cursed? But the creator of this universe was him. But it is in the nature of such a god to lie, because how can you make something out of nothing without lying? 

Fun stuff to think about for me

 

Oh and also, id like to add: Lying is part of infinity, so it is part of the truth! I am a lot like Brahma, i guess i was made in his image, i dont always say the teuth 

Ps: a trap is good when it seduces the targets. You catch fish with bait... Just a thought ? 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dodoster

[Telepresent]

3 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

But in my experience, self-inquiry alone, as in something you ask yourself a few times and look is just not going to cut it, maybe for beings almost naturally enlightened anyways

Hello!

I want to precurse this by saying that my intention in replying is to enhance discourse, not to argue.  I say that because I have seen too many discussions on technique, understanding, or whatever, turn into arguments.  I don't pretend to know everything and can only talk from my perspective, and I hope that by sharing I can not only give you an added perspective, but I can encourage you to share your experiences with me and give ME an added perspective

So... from my point of view, the idea you offer of self-inquiry is very limited, and limiting, a I think that - by the way you describe it - you recognise that to some degree.

The problem of self-enquiry is that it needs to be continuous, ongoing, and constantly negating itself.  You need to always treat the answer you came to yesterday as questionable at best, and false at worst.  You need to accept that you are going to become stuck again, and again, and again, and again, and that becoming stuck is not a PROBLEM of the process, but an inherent part of it.  And you need to accept that you have been wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and no matter how right you feel right now, that probably means that you are wrong right now.

I have probably heard this best described by Jed McKenna's accounts of spiritual autolysis, but those are still very limited, as the self-enquiry/autolysis account is inherently subjective and cannot actually describe the problem with description iteself.

So I suppose my argument here is that the description you have offered of self-inquiry suggests a very limited approach, most likely provoked by the fact it's bloody hard!  I've offered McKenna as a reference here, primarily because it's about writing which allows you a separation from subject/object of your writing/enquiry, which is much harder when you try to keep it all mental/meditative.  I should point out that I have skewed away from McKenna's apparent 'instructions' on many points, and taken time to find what is right for me to deconstruct me.  Which nobody can tell me / work out other than me.

If you've rejected self-inquiry, I would suggest it's worth another approach.  I've recognised things through it that I cannot imagine I would hit through meditation other than through luck

Edited October 10, 2016 by Telepresent

[AlwaysBeNice]

I have not, it's an active part of my life. I said it specifically to argue that self-inquiry is actually very much like meditation if not the same thing. 

After all, they also bring the same results and for both you need to look away from the world. 

[Frogfucius]

4 hours ago, Rakesh said:

This dude I have been following for a while says "You are already enlightened, but the mind is too chaotic to realize it. Saying that to people has no effect, however, therefor practice is neccessary."

This is exactly it. Underneath the ego, self-identity, beliefs and conditioning that society has thrusted upon you, you’re as pure as the stars in the galaxy, as pure as the mountains and oceans, as pure as the trees and birds, and so forth. Convincing your mind of that purity is insanely difficult, because of its decades of conditioning. You can access the purity at any moment, but your mind will continue to fight and resist, because you’re forcing it to do something it has no experience doing: shedding the fabric of its own being and creation. You’re moving it out of the confines of time, of past and future, and forcing it to accept everything as it is at this very moment, with no input on its part.

So how do you shed the mind’s conditioning? Is it impossible, or are our minds stuck in an unpurified state? Well, as people from centuries ago have figured out, meditation is one tool to do this. Through meditation, you force the mind to look inside of its conditioning. It will begin to question its conditioning, and slowly peel itself off from the stranglehold it has on true reality. The more this is done, the more the mind releases its grip on you.

I consider anything that challenges the mind and its sense of self and beliefs as a form of meditation. I could be wrong there, but I don’t believe meditation has to be just sitting still for a while. That’s a powerful technique, but I believe meditation can be enacted in every area of waking life, at any time.

[ajasatya]

even though there's no "i" that meditates, there's meditation, which is the practice of enlightenment. so one can experience his enlightened nature until he's convinced that he IS.