False Psychedelic Bliss?

[Bogdan]

In this video, between 1:01:12 and 1:02:19, Bentinho describes this painfully intense Universal Bliss that he felt during his last DMT trip, just like Leo described in his last blog update. And he goes on to say that he doesn't want that, because it's not Him, but a construct. And the reason that it's painful is because it is false. That everything is below YOU and only that, which is below, can be amplified.

My contemplation tells me that he is accurate about ME being above anything that can appear or that can have a description, but psychedelic experiences offer contrast/learning for being in the human experience, so they have value on multiple levels, including but not being limited to, selfish/survival needs all the way to Pure Understanding and levels of consciousness. 

I'm wondering of your thoughts about this

Edited February 18, 2021 by Bogdan

[Nahm]

@Bogdan

If you search the forum, there’s a recent thread about this & a video where Rupert explains this as well, more clearly & more nuanced. 

[Bogdan]

@Nahm I see, so Ben is also considering Pure Empty Consciousness as the Highest form of Consciousness, or Infinite God Consciousness, but when in fact, that is the lowest form of Consciousness. And when he says at 59:08 that it HAS TO be done out of your own freewill, and that you can't give it away to a mushroom or to DMT he is simply stuck in a dogma, right?

[Vibroverse]

When we hear someone speak against something and immediately calling it dogma is itself dogma. 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Bogdan said:

And he goes on to say that he doesn't want that, because it's not Him, but a construct.

If saying a thing is me is a construct, saying a thing is not me is also a construct. This is accurate from one perspective and inaccurate from another perspective. There are two sides to all constructs and one does not exist without the other. There is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. Alan Watts explains this brilliantly. 

2 hours ago, Bogdan said:

That everything is below YOU and only that, which is below, can be amplified.

How can everything be below YOU? That would mean one thing (YOU) is separate from everything. How can a thing be separate from everything? It is no longer everything without that thing. 

everything minus one thing is not Everything. 

2 hours ago, Bogdan said:

My contemplation tells me that he is accurate about ME being above anything that can appear or that can have a description

This seems like "the observer" perspective. Rupert Spira refers to this as "dualistic enlightenment".

"ME" is both above anything and is anything. Identification to a thing is one side of a coin. Dis-identification as not being a thing is the other side of a coin. 

[Adamq8]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

If saying a thing is me is a construct, saying a thing is not me is also a construct. This is accurate from one perspective and inaccurate from another perspective. There are two sides to all constructs and one does not exist without the other. There is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. Alan Watts explains this brilliantly. 

How can everything be below YOU? That would mean one thing (YOU) is separate from everything. How can a thing be separate from everything? It is no longer everything without that thing. 

everything minus one thing is not Everything. 

This seems like "the observer" perspective. Rupert Spira refers to this as "dualistic enlightenment".

"ME" is both above anything and is anything. Identification to a thing is one side of a coin. Dis-identification as not being a thing is the other side of a coin. 

+1 exactly!!

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Adamq8

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Bogdan said:

@Nahm I see, so Ben is also considering Pure Empty Consciousness as the Highest form of Consciousness, or Infinite God Consciousness, but when in fact, that is the lowest form of Consciousness.

Pure, empty, highest, infinite, God, lowest...are thoughts, which are ( are “made of” ) consciousness. Thoughts are like words in a book, one is free to believe & enjoy the story, and one is free to recognize the story of thoughts also. Up to each one. 

Quote

And when he says at 59:08 that it HAS TO be done out of your own freewill, and that you can't give it away to a mushroom or to DMT he is simply stuck in a dogma, right?

‘Your own free will’, ‘done’, etc, are thoughts, which actually are consciousness, and like the book analogy, one can believe and enjoy the story, or notice it’s a story. It’s really not a problem for Ben in either case (that I know of, so to speak). 

[Bogdan]

4 hours ago, Forestluv said:

How can everything be below YOU? That would mean one thing (YOU) is separate from everything. How can a thing be separate from everything? It is no longer everything without that thing. 

So if everything is and isn't different perspectives, then the perspective that everything is below you both has and doesn't have some validity to it. Infinity can afford to be this paradoxical, right? 

How can a thing be separate from everything? Well, look - it can! 

But i get it, this is becoming perspective play and it can be unproductive.

[Bogdan]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Pure, empty, highest, infinite, God, lowest...are thoughts,

infinity/God are not thoughts.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Bogdan

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Bogdan said:

So if everything is and isn't different perspectives,

Different perspectives requires separation of form. We need to create a distinction of difference. 

Another way to imagine it is Everything includes all perspectives. 

1 hour ago, Bogdan said:

then the perspective that everything is below you both has and doesn't have some validity to it. Infinity can afford to be this paradoxical, right? 

It depends on how far you want to take "everything". If you really mean everything, there is no separation. There is no thing "above" everything, since that above thing would be included in everything. 

Look around the room you are in right now. Every single thing is within everything. If we add an observer, we can say "everything is out there. I am observing everything". Yet there is still separation (every thing out there (1) and my observations of those things (2). We can take it one step further and say all of your awareness, observations, thoughts etc are also in the room and is included within Everything. 

1 hour ago, Bogdan said:

Infinity can afford to be this paradoxical, right? 

Once a mind starts expanding it will start to become aware of what seems to be paradoxes. At first they were maddening, yet then I began to love them. They are quite beautiful. Yet the downside is they can be really hard to communicate with others. 

[Bogdan]

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Once a mind starts expanding it will start to become aware of what seems to be paradoxes. At first they were maddening, yet then I began to love them. They are quite beautiful. Yet the downside is they can be really hard to communicate with others. 

I am aware of what you are describing. I often find myself asking noob questions or making posts like this and after a short time i'm like ... "of course, i know this pfft!how come my thinking was so off at the moment?" I have moments of really accentuated mental fog, that i associate with m digestive problems, heavy metal toxicity etc. 

I wasn't even going to write this response, but i wanted to thank you and to criticize you a bit

1. Thank you for helping me see that i actually have a good base of understanding, BUT i just didn't spend enough time contemplating, organizing and actualizing these thoughts, so that they're active at all times;

2. I want to criticize your response, because although i appreciate you giving some of your time, i feel like you didn't actually try to connect with the person, and see where they are really coming from (we were actually on the same page) and you just threw your insights out there, dare i say feeling a bit superior. I know i have certainly done this in the past, and i see some resemblance of that.

Well anyway, if i wrongly criticized you please let me know, and i'm looking forward to continuing opening each other's mind  Cheers!

[Leo Gura]

21 hours ago, Bogdan said:

Bentinho describes this painfully intense Universal Bliss that he felt during his last DMT trip, just like Leo described in his last blog update. And he goes on to say that he doesn't want that, because it's not Him, but a construct. And the reason that it's painful is because it is false.

False? Lol. That's nonsense. It's Absolute Truth.

But you miss the point. It's not about the bliss. You're not chasing that bliss, you're simply becoming conscious of Absolute Truth and the bliss is just a side-effect of that.

When you are infinitely conscious it's just natural that bliss occurs.

I never do psychedelics for the purpose of pleasure. But if pleasure comes, I won't say no.

Him is the construct. Infinite Consciousness/Love is the true "him". It's just that he needs to peddle human bullshit to his followers. Bentinho can't tell his followers that they will never reach Infinite Consciousness without DMT or they would leave him.

You will NEVER reach DMT levels of consciousnesses through self-inquiry or meditation. That is the truth. What these self-inquiry people are teaching you is something far less than that because they don't know how to get you access to DMT levels of consciousness.

Psychedelics are not about bliss, they are about increasing one's consciousness. That he doesn't get this is sad.

[zeroISinfinity]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

You will NEVER reach DMT levels of consciousnesses through self-inquiry or meditation. That is the truth. 

I guess. 

[Eren Eeager]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But you miss the point. It's not about the bliss. You're not chasing that bliss, you're simply becoming conscious of Absolute Truth and the bliss is just a side-effect of that.

Don't you chase the truth because it feels Good? Isn't the Truth = Bliss? So you are actually chasing bliss?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Eren Eeager said:

Don't you chase the truth because it feels Good?

Never

What kind of fool do you take me for?

Quote

Isn't the Truth = Bliss? So you are actually chasing bliss?

The truth is rarely bliss. Like I said, that is merely a side-effect. Like smoke from a fire.

[mandyjw]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Never

What kind of fool do you take me for?

You really gotta ditch that signature quote. 

[pole553]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Never

What kind of fool do you take me for?

The truth is rarely bliss. Like I said, that is merely a side-effect. Like smoke from a fire.

How do you know you experience the Truth and not your mind's interpretation of what truth is? Neuroscience showed psychedelics acting akin to dream-states through theta wave induction - how does one know this isn't the entire effect and our primate brain is tricked by it?

 Isn't claiming to know the Truth a bit pedantic considering the scope of human experience?  

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura What's the difference between Love and Bliss? Not the thought of it, but the experience? Is Love not Consciousness Itself? Is Truth a thought? 

[actualizing25]

@Leo Gura Then why are all the gurus saying that your true nature is peace/happiness? So they are lying?

All enlightened beings are saying that your true nature(=Truth) is peace, joy, happiness. 

[zeroISinfinity]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura What's the difference between Love and Bliss? Not the thought of it, but the experience? Is Love not Consciousness Itself? Is Truth a thought? 

You are Infinite Love. That's the Truth. That's awakening and all this non duality stuff are about that. 

It's possible with meditation too but since ya'll philosphers that's highly unreachable state so to speak. So psychedelics is only way for you.