Can birds experience infinite love?

[StarStruck]

I have a bird. They seem so peaceful. 

An animal life is simple. 

As long as they can get food and water they are fine. 

The human wants more. Wants to fuck up. Wants more than it needs. Wants sense of security, self esteem and self actualization.  Wants to posture to others. 

Living in spiritual solitude is like being that bird I think or no Just? Just eating, shitting and being. 

[Inliytened1]

@StarStruck not if it's one of those talking parrots 

They may start talking like an egoic human in no time at all...

 

 

[Moksha]

Animals have integrity; they don't do battle with a complex, conditioned mind. They live in the present moment, and aren't plagued by anxiety, depression, and all the other sufferings that come with the illusion and clinging to past and future. Humans are more evolved, which is a blessing and a curse. We are capable of creating more karma, positive or negative, due to our capacity for Self-awareness vs. Self-denial.

[Osaid]

I have similar thoughts when going for a walk

[Dazgwny]

I can’t really agree with this. They definitely suffer to some degree with the likes of anxiety type issues. I had a budgie when I was a kid and so did a mate of mine. The one me mate had used to be let out out of the cage fly round come sit on ya hand seemed very relaxed and open. Where as the one I had would fly round like a nutcase then perch itself up on top of the curtain rail and it was very difficult to have it come down sit on ya hand be playful an that. It seemed very anxious about being out in the open and interacting with us. I don’t think they are at all in some sort of spiritual solitude or whatever you want to call it. Infact id say more along the lines of that they are in pure survival mode. And this goes for birds of all kinds and most if not all animals the more I think about it. Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. But that’s how I interpret the animal kingdom as such. I have wondered though, has it ever been known for an animal to commit suicide? I’ve never heard of the likes. Maybe an ape, but even then I’ve never come across anything claiming one has. Just a thought

[Moksha]

Eckhart Tolle describes a scene he once observed in a park. Two geese got into a fight, and it was pretty fierce. Then they moved in different directions, and flapped their wings ferociously to get rid of the excess energy. Guess what? They were back to swimming side by side, no blaming, no complaining, no grudges, just being.

[vibv]

You are the only one who can be infinite love.

Luckily that includes all birds - and all the rest, too.

[SamueLSD]

9 hours ago, Moksha said:

 aren't plagued by anxiety, depression, and all the other sufferings that come with the illusion and clinging to past and future. 

Sure they are.

Maybe not by default, but nor are humans. 

We are all untainted being prior to our indoctrination. 

 

[vibv]

4 minutes ago, SamueLSD said:

We are all untainted being prior to our indoctrination. 

 

I don‘t think so. What about your (infinite) past?

if you count that as illusory (which it is) then you can‘t be tainted at all.

[Nahm]

The birds have the advantage of not being of this world, and thus are not enslaved. 

[Moksha]

5 hours ago, SamueLSD said:

Sure they are.

Maybe not by default, but nor are humans. 

Animals don't suffer, because they live in the present moment. Don't confuse suffering and pain. Everything can experience pain, but suffering is different. It is self-inflicted. Humans complain about current reality, as if complaining or refusing to acknowledge what is makes any positive difference. It doesn't, it only needs to unnecessary suffering.

The good news is that we can learn not to suffer. Animals are fortunate that they don't need that lesson, but the downside is they cannot attain Self-realization. They are uncomplaining characters in the dream, but they cannot see themselves as characters.

[ilja]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Animals don't suffer, because they live in the present moment. Don't confuse suffering and pain. Everything can experience pain, but suffering is different. It is self-inflicted. Humans complain about current reality, as if complaining or refusing to acknowledge what is makes any positive difference. It doesn't, it only needs to unnecessary suffering.

The good news is that we can learn not to suffer. Animals are fortunate that they don't need that lesson, but the downside is they cannot attain Self-realization. They are uncomplaining characters in the dream, but they cannot see themselves as characters.

I don't think that is entirely true. Animals may have that in a greater degree than humans. But even then I find it questionable.

Edited February 18, 2021 by ilja

[Scholar]

10 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Animals don't suffer, because they live in the present moment. Don't confuse suffering and pain. Everything can experience pain, but suffering is different. It is self-inflicted. Humans complain about current reality, as if complaining or refusing to acknowledge what is makes any positive difference. It doesn't, it only needs to unnecessary suffering.

The good news is that we can learn not to suffer. Animals are fortunate that they don't need that lesson, but the downside is they cannot attain Self-realization. They are uncomplaining characters in the dream, but they cannot see themselves as characters.

Moksha I think most people take Suffering to be any negative experience, including pain. What you are describing is something like second order Suffering, like the fear of pain for example. These things animals can experience too, animals can for example be traumatized and have forms of PTSD.

There are many animals who probably do have deeper forms of self reflection, so we should not generalize. Animals however do have forms of ego, just that ours are more complex or different.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Scholar

[Moksha]

I agree there is a continuum. Evolution has created humans to have the greatest capacity for Self-awareness, but we evolved from lower forms that weren't entirely devoid of it. My point is that animals, in general, are in a more pure state of being than most humans, and that humans are the source of our own suffering. Animals and plants are at a level below human thought, and human thought is the source of our suffering. I am defining suffering specifically as imprisonment within the conditioned mind, driven by resistance to what is, and am differentiating it from pain.

A few quotes from Tolle that refer to this:

The animals are at a level prior to thinking. They haven't lost themselves in thought. We rise above thinking and then we meet them again, where we're both in no-thought. There's a deep connection.

For a long time humans probably were in touch on a deeper level with the depths of their being, unconsciously so, the same way an animal or a tree is. Gradually, though, more and more of their identity went into the movement of thought. They identified more and more with the movement of thinking.

I sometimes say animals are closer to God than humans. They are closer to the source. The humans are more lost in the mind forms. Being is more obscured to the human because of the overlay of ego and mental formation.

We are destined not to go back to the level of animals that we've come from but to return to being by going beyond thinking.

[StarStruck]

48 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Animals don't suffer, because they live in the present moment. Don't confuse suffering and pain. Everything can experience pain, but suffering is different. It is self-inflicted. Humans complain about current reality, as if complaining or refusing to acknowledge what is makes any positive difference. It doesn't, it only needs to unnecessary suffering.

The good news is that we can learn not to suffer. Animals are fortunate that they don't need that lesson, but the downside is they cannot attain Self-realization. They are uncomplaining characters in the dream, but they cannot see themselves as characters.

If you want to achieve your LP as a human, there is a lot of work and perhaps even stress.

Can someone explain to me how LP fits into being?

Being able to tolerate stress and not suffer is hard.

I rather just be a bird, but then I won't reach my full potential and suffer too.

[ilja]

@Moksha I don't think animals are thoughtless

[Vibroverse]

Animals are you. 

[Moksha]

4 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

If you want to achieve your LP as a human, there is a lot of work and perhaps even stress.

Can someone explain to me how LP fits into being?

Being able to tolerate stress and not suffer is hard.

I rather just be a bird, but then I won't reach my full potential and suffer too.

The purpose of life is to experience the dream, and ultimately learn to live lucidly within the dream, by realizing and manifesting yourself as Love, as Consciousness, as God.

[Moksha]

4 minutes ago, ilja said:

@Moksha I don't think animals are thoughtless

It's a continuum. More thought = more suffering, as long as you identify with your thoughts. When you rise above them, they are no longer a problem.

[ilja]

@Moksha  Tolle said they are thoughtless