Nonorigination and Nirvana

[Breakingthewall]

I loved the stories about the nose, bridewell, jonh long, linn hill ... maybe you're linn hill ... Hmm, I don't think so, like you said, you started climbing in '72, too early. the problem with climbing (for me) is that it is a total ego enhancer. Does it matter to any climber to leave a half way, being happy for some specific moments? no, it is necessary to hang the medal or if not, we go home very sad.

23 hours ago, deci belle said:

Taoism says that the first trip is short, in that the sudden is experienced in terms of the absolute, in an instant, because the nature of the absolute is already selfless nonorigination before the first thought

As you put it, it seems that true nature is experienced for a moment, and then years are spent integrating it. Wouldn't it be better to be one with the tao on a daily basis? The more times your ego is separated and you are the emptiness that dreams, the more deeply you will understand in my opinion

2 hours ago, deci belle said:

even though you know the truth, you aren't able to act on the knowledge of the "truth." Why? Because referencing one's recollection of the absolute is still referencing through the self that recollects.

of course. you cannot remember, much less conceptualize the truth. it has to manifest in the present moment. all this of: you are god, everything is a dream, etc, it is mental masturbation. everything is mental masturbation, only constant direct realization is enough. the problem is when the veil has been lifted, and one has seen, or rather, has been, without where or when, without questions. when the veil returns (the veil is me), the mind begins its dance. the only option imo, is that the veil is so thin at all times that the truth is transparent and quiets the mind. for this you have to avoid anything that reinforces the ego. The two advantages of the 5 meo are that it momentarily dissolves the veil, and shows the truth, but it also shows the veil. you are the veil, you can be a veil more, or less dense, and here is the work

 

2 hours ago, deci belle said:

The "middle way" is not a relativistic compromising approach to delusional attributes, it is already neither ordinary nor holy. That is, it is neither delusion nor absolute in that one sees external reality as no different than itself (or even oneself) as is, without referencing ego's personal perspective

possibly true, but how is this achieved? It is not simpler to slim the ego to its minimum expression and simply let go? there are really no more options. you will go your way in any way, that is closer to the truth. the truth is everything, but no. Living completely in the ego can be said to be the truth because everything that exists is, but it is to have put layers and layers of curtain (which is also made of truth) in the middle. 

Maybe I'm doing it too simple, some knowledge is needed, but at the end you have to trascend the words. 

 

 

23 hours ago, deci belle said:

THAT'S ALL I HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT SINCE 2008.

I have many of your text saved, even i understand 20% being generous hehe. some evoke freedom, purity

Edited February 21, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

haha~ not too early. Also, I'm not married and living in France like Lynn is~ so I'm almost in the same generation or so as Largo and Lynn though. They always seemed a bit older than me (to me). I remember them hanging out in John's white and yellow VW van up at Humber Park at the end of the road above Idyllwild when I used to hang out for weeks at a time in my old '50s truck. From Humber, I could always see the Sheriff driving up the road near dusk and then I'd dive into my camper and lock myself in my truck which I'm still driving (40 years later). After he'd shake the truck a bit and drive off down the road, I'd get out again~ heeheehee!!

I remember watching Lynn lead Fred (on Tahquitz) once with a pack on her back from the top of "Lunch Rock." Those were the days~ haha. John also had a 911 Porsche, hmmm… "Ho-man…" was the Stonemasters call. I never knew until the last ten years or so from the Topo Forum threads about the Stonemasters and now I know that's why my Idyllwild local climbing partners would always say that. "Ho-o-oh-Man!!" I never knew…

I would be up there in the sun in the morning doing my regular ballet stretches with Lynn and Mari sometimes watching me. I gotta doo what I gotta doo… haha!! I didn't see them that often. We (the group of Idyllwild locals I climbed with) weren't the Stonemasters and we were fine with it. I never saw Bridwell. In the 80s, some of those other "way-hones" weren't local to the Idyllwild, Riverside or Joshua Tree climbing scene (yet).

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"…possibly true, but how is this achieved? It is not simpler to slim the ego to its minimum expression and simply let go?"

Not originating pattern-awareness in the first place is all. That's "nonorigination" in action. Nonorigination is already the nature of Mind itself. Nothing needs to be let go when it's already not there. On the other hand, due to habit-energy, what is essential is subtle continuous observation of mind. Delusion is simply a matter of following pattern-awareness unawares. Enlightenment is simply nonoriginating pattern-awareness by yourself in the midst of everyday ordinary situations. It's not a matter of "controlling" anything. There is no enlightenment outside of delusional realms anyway. Beyond delusional realms is the definition of the absolute. The abstracted experience of the Absolute is such only because the intrinsic relative (created) aspect has never existed in terms of reality. That's why it is considered an "extreme", considered not proper to be identifying with— no different than (hopefully) not identifying as the relative aspect alone by virtue of the personality. Reality is seeing the absolute from within the relative in ordinary situations. Mystical revelation is having spontaneously reverted to pure awareness having never begun (the Unborn). You don't necessarily have to see your nature in mystical trance first. Dangs!! But if you do~ by all means: GETTING TO WORK is all the more viable!! yeehaaaa! By perpetuating subtle continuous concentration observing mind, one notes when arbitrary self-referencing occurs. In the instant of noting habit awareness' arising, it will evaporate on the spot, if you don't follow it. Ordinarily, being persistent in this over a long period of time naturally results in the sudden anyway. It's just what and how it is. Gradual > sudden > gradual…

Having experienced the sudden, then in its aftermath, one continues gradual practice, "chopping wood, gathering water."

Not originating ego's (psychologically self-referencing) expression in the first place is the easiest method of self refinement. It doesn't have to be rote formal sitting meditation. Formal meditation is practice for the real thing. Why not just do it for real as practice itself? The goal is habitual non-referencing of the psychological apparatus. Observe mind's subtle arising in terms of self-reification over a long long time and it will tend to cease arising unawares of itself. Ego simply cannot stand up to continuous concentrated scrutiny forever. One day, it will crap out, and the monkey will be off your back.

 

 

ed note: add "They always seemed a bit older than me (to me)." in 1st paragraph; tweak 5th paragraph

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by deci belle

[Breakingthewall]

You mean that: 

"Rising above ingrained sarcasm, indifference, apathy, intellectual vanity, self-satisfaction, guilt trips, and dualistic attitudes attributable to lifelong accumulations of learned and inherited ignorance is achieved by setting the standard by which concludes one's personal story forever. ."

 

It's true, is absolutely needed. The personal history must to conclude, is necessary if you want to empty your mind. But after the egotic thoughts , are other kind of thoughs that do not refer to oneself: the attempt to conceptualize reality. to stop this I think that to realize your true nature is necessary, if not the mind will never stop trying to understand. without understanding it has no balance. only the realization of the truth can stop this, and only while this realization is happening in real time

One question about this:" This is called the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas and tathagatas. Buddhas and tathagatas are those who dwell in nonorigination and deal with reality as is because reality is nonoriginated."

What do you mean exactly when you say that reality is no originated? Originated for your mind? 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

Ooh~ nice quote from "Setting the Standard", mon ami!!

The human mentality tending not to stop "understanding" (relative to itself) is indicative of habit-awareness, alone.

Quiescence (open awareness' silent illumination void of self-reifying pattern-awareness) and immediate acquiescence (incipient nonresistance to reality as is) are indicative of enlightening being's selfless activity before spontaneously going into action, i.e.: before the first thought, in terms of one's mutual response with creative potential. The only reason for compulsively needing to "understand"relative to one's human mentality is one's psychological habituation to turning reality into views relative to the psychological pattern-awareness of the being that is going to die.

Even in terms of the absolute, you know that there is nothing to know. In terms of the relative, knowledge is immediate if psychological self-referencing is ended. If psychological momentum hasn't ceased, karmic bondage to following thought unawares is the perennial result— hardly what one would call the practice of self-refinement.

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"To stop this I think that to realize your true nature is necessary, if not the mind will never stop trying to understand."

Well, you already did that, didn't you? Why then has your mind not stopped trying to understand?

Since you have already seen your nature, I wonder why you seem to be "begging the question."

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"…the mind will never stop trying to understand. Without understanding it has no balance. Only the realization of the truth can stop this."

The human mentality is the working definition of instability. Otherwise, it's the chicken and the egg. The answer is nonorigination, which is inherent. I'm not saying one ought not see one's nature, but such is not a thing to await in anticipation. Having done so already, why is it still an issue? Bankei always said to awaken to one's everyday ordinary unborn mind. "All things resolve in the Unborn." There is no need for compulsive "understanding" relative to the human mentality, unless habit energy is still in control of one's psychological apparatus. If your know your own unborn mind, you know it does not originate views relative to the self that compulsively tenders reality in terms relative to ego's habituation to self-referencing.

If you know and you can't act on that knowledge, it's the same as not knowing.

If you are going to go around in circles… what can I do about it?

 

 

ed note: add "hardly what one would call the practice of self-refinement" in 4th paragraph

Edited February 21, 2021 by deci belle

[Breakingthewall]

15 hours ago, deci belle said:

Well, you already did that, didn't you? Why then has your mind not stopped trying to understand?

It's stopping. As you say, the habit is strong, but there is a difference now: it is easy to perceive what a habit is, they do not refer to something real, since I know that reality is different. Your explanation of self-referential thoughts vigilance has been very helpful to me, and the very interesting bibliography

Edited February 21, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

Yes, it's true— for those who see their nature, the sudden severs the compulsion to act but habit-awareness continues relative to one's accrued karmic burden. This is because even one's very life-time is a karmically bound event. Gautama Buddha wasn't above this and had to spend some considerable period of time under the Bodhi Tree after his complete perfect enlightenment, where he realized that absolutely nothing whatsoever is gained by sudden illumination. Gaining nothing whatsoever is proof of authentic realization of inherent selfless nonorigination. I gotta say, that is a completely logical statement in even rational terms. In the aftermath of the sudden, the Buddha still had to go through a maturation process. It's a universal aspect of enlightening accord in reality. The sudden is truly entry-level. That's why continued gradual refinement in the aftermath of the sudden is essential, otherwise the forgoing achievement is in vain. The compulsion is gone, but the habit is still intact. It must simply be worn out like a shoe, no different than the circumstantially karmic parameters defining one's existence in this very lifetime. There are no survivors.

That's right, the perspective of selfless awareness is the touchstone of true objectivity. It is actually possible to carry out one's task with OBJECTIVITY in the aftermath of a glimpse of the Absolute.

 

 

ed note: re-cast the contextual construction of the 1st line; add several lines to 1st paragraph

Edited February 21, 2021 by deci belle

[deci belle]

I didn't want to address the following until things settled down…

Breakingthewall wrote:

Quote

One question about this:" This is called the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas and tathagatas. Buddhas and tathagatas are those who dwell in nonorigination and deal with reality as is because reality is nonoriginated."

What do you mean exactly when you say that reality is not originated? Originated for your mind?

Creation is what it is in terms of karma, time , infinity, birth and death because it is originated. The nature of awareness is nonorigination itself. It could be said that awareness works the way it does by virtue of nonorigination itself. Why? Simply because that's its nature. Since awareness is already your true identity and the nature of awareness is nonorigination, awareness obviously has never fallen into the created realm. Our own everyday ordinary awareness is not created. Your own mind is not created, but it goes along with creation unawares; that's delusion. The fact that awareness is nonoriginated is how and why beings are inconceivable, whether they know it or not. Beings have the potential for not only experiencing their nature, in terms of the absolute, but beings can also experience their inconceivably transcendent nature in the midst of creation simply because creation's nature is the same inconceivability. It's just the way it is and no one knows why. The buzz-kill is habitually mistaking your brilliantly effective ego-function for your identity. Why? Ego isn't real. Why trade in the innate enlightening function for the innate psychological function? At least the innate enlightening function is itself transcendent accord in reality before the first thought.

Habitually self-reflective thought is a killer.

As for reality, which is neither absolute nor created, since it is itself the realm of transcendent nonorigination as the scene before your eyes, by seeing potential where ordinary deluded people see things to exploit, enlightening beings (those awakened to their innate spiritual function) don't go along with creation. Not going along with creation is simply a matter of seeing potential, which isn't apart (differentiated) from enlightening being. Not using the mind to differentiate self and other is automatic nonorigination on the spot. In this respect, one's self-refinement is carried out by not-doing. Simply nonoriginating conditioning before the first thought is transcendent enlightening activity unbeknownst to anybody.

When I say that reality is nonoriginated, that means, by virtue of its nature (no different than who you really are), there is no reason to deliberately or unconsciously go out of your way to follow birth and death, not to mention get hung up on all kinds of fascinations in the process of accruing and perpetuating karmic burdens. I don't know about your mind, but…

MIND IS ITSELF REALITY. THERE IS NO REALITY OUTSIDE OF MIND. NONORIGINATION IS SUCH DUE TO MIND ITSELF. MIND IS NOT A THING AS OPPOSED TO REALITY AS A THING. THERE IS NO THING. THE ABSOLUTE IS YOUR NATURE— BUT THE PERSON DIFFERENTIATING THOUGHT ISN'T IT.

Enlightening accord in reality is simply abiding in the nature of mind which is nonoriginated, whereby one simply transcends creation's karmic rounds of situational and energetic rounds of birth and death. All that means is that it is possible to save a hell of a lot of energy that naturally and automatically goes towards fueling your spiritual evolution without end (as long as you don't set up your mentality as a checkpoint for discriminating self and other relative to ego). You have a choice: either maintain ego-reification at all times and go along with delusion and experience endless rounds of karmic evolution or forget self-differentiating habit-consciousness in order to spontaneously absorb creation's spiritual potential.

All authentic teaching points toward the latter option.

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Quiescence (open awareness' silent illumination void of self-reifying pattern-awareness) and immediate acquiescence (incipient nonresistance to reality as is) are indicative of enlightening being's fluid selfless activity before spontaneously going into action, i.e.: before the first thought, in terms of one's mutual response with, and by virtue of, creative potential.

The two terms italicized in the quote above may serve to clarify certain notions frequently associated with the  tathagatagarbha literature, specifically, the "natural purity of mind” (cittaprakrtivisuddhi). Creative potential is another term  for "unrefined potential." Unrefined potential is the "raw" element inherent in the created aspect of situational evolution (karma) that spiritual adepts key into as is, instead of seeing (mistaking) potential as objects of speculation.

Unrefined potential is the basic element of spiritual alchemy "absorbed" by enlightening beings in the course of subtle selfless adaption to temporal realms. Such potential is "absorbed" simply by seeing. Seeing is perception which is not relative to the person. Those who dwell in nonorigination and deal with situations in terms of reality as is (without employing self-reifying consciousness) absorb karma's inherent unrefined potential and seal it away void of intellectualism. The process of enlightening function is simply a matter of experiencing life without habitually referencing ego-consciousness. All wonder arises naturally from simply abiding in nonorigination. Taoism calls this "resting in the highest good."

 

 

ed note: add quote and the following two paragraphs at the bottom

Edited February 21, 2021 by deci belle

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

Your own mind is not created,

it depends on what you call mind. You don't mean the ego mind i guess. You mean the reality, the illusion. But the illusion isn't created? 

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

Our own everyday ordinary awareness is not created

Ordinary awareness is the only awareness that exist, isn't it? 

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

Habitually self-reflective thought is a killer.

Absolutely, self-reflective thinking is an act of self-nullification, a vital anesthesia administered constantly

 

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

As for reality, which is neither absolute nor created,

what do you mean by reality? I understand everyday reality. it is neither absolute nor created ... I don't know. I would say that reality is the mind, the illusion. from the perspective of the absolute there is no reality, there is no universe. it is only the mental process that creates it, a dream, so if is created ... isn't it?

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

MIND IS ITSELF REALITY. THERE IS NO REALITY OUTSIDE OF MIND. NONORIGINATION IS SUCH DUE TO MIND ITSELF. MIND IS NOT A THING AS OPPOSED TO REALITY AS A THING. THERE IS NO THING.

exactly, the reality is the mind. but the mind is illusion, it is the dream. the absolute and the dream are the same, the absolute is here now, and the dream. Not understandable for now. From the point of view of the absolute, only he (or I, or you) exists, still in no time, the only, and the dream somehow revolves around it, emanates from it and is it, if, but it has no substance, it has no reality, it is dream.

 

 

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

Unrefined potential is the basic element of spiritual alchemy "absorbed" by enlightening beings in the course of subtle selfless adaption to temporal realms. Such potential is "absorbed" simply by seeing. Seeing is perception which is not relative to the person

 seeing seems to somehow absorb reality, i imagine it means the act of perceiving without any kind of egoic disturbance, when perception and perceived are equalized, without the perceiver printing any dissonance, no will to change, thus merging with what is perceived.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

Breakingthewall wrote:

Quote

seeing seems to somehow absorb reality, i imagine it means the act of perceiving without any kind of egoic disturbance, when perception and perceived are equalized, without the perceiver printing any dissonance, no will to change, thus merging with what is perceived.

This seems usable… go with that.

[Breakingthewall]

@deci belle hah only trying to understand you. Only to dissolve the veil and see the truth as often and as deep as possible is usable. It's not useful to have seen and especulate about that. the truth is realized and then forgotten , is alive, can't be a remember. whoever wakes up goes back to sleep. Who realized that he is nothing become again something, it's really easy fall again in the old patterns . Talk about it is a mental exercise that can be more harmful than helpful. I appreciate the insigth on self-referential thoughts, it has been very useful. Thanks!

Edited February 22, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

Your assessment of the relative in the aftermath of the sudden is spot-on, Breakingthewall— I feel your pain, heehee!!

Chang Po-tuan, the great taoist teacher and writer said this in his tome, Understanding Reality, at the end of the second statement (page 28):

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"If you come upon the great elixir without even looking for it, having come upon it, you are a fool if you do not refine it."

This makes it obvious that for those who see their nature, it is necessary and essential for them to take up the endless task of further self-refinement in order to maturate and stabilize the foregone accomplishment. In some cases, when the experience of the absolute has been triggered prematurely, the task can prove to be more difficult than under "ordinary" circumstances. Ultimately, it doesn't matter though. The struggle is what it is.

Taoism has long been associated with chemical and plant-based drug-use for the purposes of triggering the sudden under the auspices of an illumined teacher.

It is necessary to "preserve the fundamental" by maintaining quiescence and immediate acquiescence in order to accommodate everyday ordinary situations without "leaking" potential— that is, overseeing mindfully continuous clarification of the the basis in not following thoughts unawares. In a word, this is all about equanimity and emptiness. Nevertheless, if it behooves one to act with ruthless compassion in turning over the money-changers' tables in the marketplace every once in a while, then so be it. The "moderators" aren't paid to understand the reality at hand, they are paid to follow and uphold the rules of convention.

The will to enlightenment is an audacious affair. Timidity in the upholding of dubious conventions of so-called "compassion" and social protocol is tantamount to fealty to ever-shifting standards of political correctness. Objectivity in seeing reality and fluid adaption to it must become one's standard.

Understanding Reality by Chang Po-tuan ISBN 0-8248-1139-9

 

ed note: add ISBN

Edited February 23, 2021 by deci belle

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, deci belle said:

Breakingthewall— I feel your pain, heehee!!

Hahaha not much pain. the disgusting viscous mucus of the psychological has detached from me. sometimes it sticks back but is turning into dry mucus. I am no longer breakingthewall because the wall has been broken. all that remains is to kick the rubble away from time to time. I have to change my name. where there was a wall now there is breadth. I can't help but think: how smart I am, fast, efficient. as always. sorry for the flowers on my head, but when something is true it's foolness not to admit it

 

1 hour ago, deci belle said:

In some cases, when the experience of the absolute has been triggered prematurely

The experience of the absolute deliberately sought cannot be premature, it happens when it has to. but the refinement you speak of is necessary. reaching the point where the sky is open, the earth wide, and things are as they have to be ,is not a matter of a day but not a long way to see that the structure has crumbled and the soap bubble has exploded disappearing form closed and leaving open space

 

1 hour ago, deci belle said:

The will to enlightenment is an audacious affair. Timidity in the upholding of dubious conventions of so-called "compassion" and social protocol is tantamount to fealty to ever-shifting standards of political correctness. Objectivity in seeing reality and fluid adaption to it must become one's standard.

Great paragraph. the audacity has to be the necessary. in freedom there is no place to hold on and that's fine.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[deci belle]

I wonder who the, um, kind soul is who has been following this and the last deci thread anonymously, hmmmmm? hahahaha~

As for those who have chimed in (below) because they relate to the word "kind soul", I know who you are…❤︎

The Book of Balance and Harmony has made reference to the critical period following "perfect attainment" (merging with cosmic space/shattering space): Carefully protecting the spiritual root is called "incubation." Incubation is like a dragon nurturing a pearl, like a hen sitting on her eggs; one carefully guards against straying, for with the slightest slip all the work that has gone before is wasted.

Also: When Taoist scripture speaks of the profound mystery of the macrocosm [creation/delusion/eternity], this too is in reference to the supreme reality [being neither ordinary nor holy].

The Book of Balance and Harmony ISBN 0-86547-363-3

 

 

ed note: change "chicken shit" to "kind soul" in 1st line; add last two paragraphs

Edited February 23, 2021 by deci belle

[Awayfarer]

8 hours ago, deci belle said:

I wonder who the chicken-shit is who has been following this and the last deci thread anonymously, hmmmmm? hahahaha~

I am most definitely chicken shit. 

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, deci belle said:

I wonder who the chicken-shit is who has been following this and the last deci thread anonymously, hmmmmm? hahahaha~

I wonder the same too.. Because I have no idea what you are even talking about. ?

Surprise surprise 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Someone here

[Awayfarer]

8 hours ago, Awayfarer said:

I am most definitely chicken shit. 

What a mystery it is indeed!

I wrote this couplet of dialogue two weeks ago:

"David:

What is that smell?

(sniffing Trip)

Is it Kimchi? Or is it chickenshit?

Damon:

Kid's some kind of joker or something."

 

Some of you may get the "Some Kind of Wonderful" homage.

 

I try not to put you on a pedestal but fail frequently. I am literally (!) just starting Ch. 5 of The Book of Balance and Harmony. "Collecting body and mind is gathering medicine."

 

[Someone here]

Why are you using two accounts? ?

[deci belle]

bonjour, Awayfarer~ not to worry-- I am still capable of hanging out and climbing up and down very tiny, exposed pedestals❤︎

Someone here asked, "Why are you using two accounts?"

Well, it's kinda like my avatar— which can serve as a clue… if you go on my profile page you can enlarge the image a bit if you want to.

Most people are habituated to employing only psychological awareness (ego-consciousness) at any given time, whereas both psychological and nonpsychological awareness seamlessly and impersonally apply on my account, depending on the situational timing, and according to the present potential, wherever I might find myself~ so it's a spontaneous element (function) that is automatically and naturally actualized. It's not that I deliberately have two separate accounts. I just have both functional aspects to account for at my disposal, which are automatically applied, in terms of subtle spiritual adaption. The situation itself is the determining factor, so it really depends on the gravity (or not) of the situation.

It's not something I do arbitrarily by using my own power and discretion. The potential inherent in the situation is itself the determinate factor. I only am aware of the movement of the situational elements and momentum; I myself don't move anything; I only see the primordial by virtue of the temporal. Since I'm keyed into the Changeless, I don't have to go along with the changes accruing karmically within the context of the situation, as others might be so compelled to do by their own karmic momentum.

Someone else (a different person), also noticed that… how did it come to your attention, Someone here?

 

 

ed note: add 1st line

Edited February 24, 2021 by deci belle

[Carl-Richard]

15 hours ago, Someone here said:

Why are you using two accounts? ?

Narcissists have to live too you know 

[Someone here]

7 hours ago, deci belle said:

Someone else (a different person), also noticed that… how did it come to your attention, Someone here?

God told me 

@Carl-Richard lol.