Please do not think of confucius as a sage - not even a decent philosopher

[charlie cho]

Watching Leo's take on wisdom, he came upon saying the people he deemed wise. I got triggered deeply when he said Confucius. I'm not trying to be a dick here though. Like, for a person living outside Asia, I understand why you might think of Confucius as a wise person. I know Leo just talked about him from the top of his head, so I don't really care. Really, I truly tell you, most of the nationalism, racism, strict mannerisms, oppression of youngsters for the elders, strict body movement, lack of creativity, over emphasis on learning and education in china, japan, and korea stems from Confucianist ideals. 

I'm very passionate these days to really break the idea of people idolizing confucianist ideals. People think in ancient times, our ancestors must have idolized confucianism. Before the year 1600, confucian ideals were mainly frowned upon. Most likely, the first emperor of China hated Confucius scholars and decided to massacre them.

I'll tell you what Confucius thought of as the greatest sin. This means not being filial, not being a patriot of your country 不忠不孝 His ideal of a noble man was a person who devotes his life for his country and his parents. Tell that to a girl shooting porn who was molested or raped by her father. Tell that to Chinese citizens who were persecuted for criticizing their government. 

Just read this, if cannot be bothered.

Several philosophers and sages in ancient China LOATHED confucius. Mainly Taoists such as Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. I guess "loath" may be quite extreme a word. Anyways, they emphasized how confucius made people into knowledge lovers, without any depth into their understanding of the world. People who are pretentious just to be mannerly in front of his king just in order to look like a patriot and a person who has cultivated filial piety. Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu liked to deem Confucius as a person who has made his disciples stay away from the natural, the Tao, because Confucius LOVED knowledge and intellectual prowess in his students. He basically thought TRUE WISDOM COULD BE CULTIVATED, which is the most dumbest thing you could ever hear of. True love and morality cannot be cultivated or learned. You can't learn how to love a woman, you simply love a woman. You cannot force yourself to love your village people, you simply love them when the right time comes!

If you know the famous story between Confucius and Lao Tzu... read... 

Confucius – Ego – Morality? — OSHO Online Library

There are so many things I can talk about confucianism. In conclusion, just like christianity and islam has destroyed many things in society, confucius did the same, maybe worse. And that guy called confucius himself was not enlightened like Jesus or the Buddha, nor was he a decent philosopher! I know I'm paraphrasing here, but his core idea was to "cultivate" intelligence, "devote yourself to the country" "devote yourself to your parents". I mean loving your country, loving your parents is cool. But with such philosophy, you can only get so far. His ideas had such small a scale that even Taoists could see the limitations of them so clearly, they could not bear to see people actually adopt those ideas in their political system. Yeah, loving your parents are cool. Loving your country is cool. But the scale is just too small!

Edited February 15, 2021 by charlie cho

[Nahm]

25 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

confucianism

God so funny. 

[Breakingthewall]

just read a summary of his sentences and it seems very brilliant. Of course very conservative in his political ideas, I have read that he was an idealist who wanted to legislate even the minimum behavior of people to increase virtue. keep in mind that he lived in a feudal era. I think that in context it is very brilliant. it is not the same as lao tzu which is spiritual, confucius is politics, but 2500 years ago

[charlie cho]

@Nahm dude, who are you? I see you everywhere and i never see you saying something.... thats ever ... to my liking?

[charlie cho]

@Breakingthewall yeah i agree with you. And yes, he did try to legislate all the small mannerism one had to have to demonstrate nobleness and filiel piety. This is the utter nonsense that shows his confusion of what true nobility is. 

Yes, it was a feudal time which was called the spring and autumn period. And you know what? Those warlords at the time did not like his idealogy. He complained to lao tzu moaning about how nobody cares about his ideas. 

In context his political ideas were, yes, quite good. Nobody should refute that. But only for this reason. Those feudal times had frequent rape pillaging murder cannibalism patricide. Especially patricide was frequent because the sons often killed their father to become the leader of the faction, so in that context, of course confucius ideas of filiel piety is important, but this is like teaching a dog not to shit on the mattress a brilliant thing. Like, patricide is something quite brutal. And anybody of the right mind wouldnt really care to do that. 

You have to take into account confucius self admittedly said he has not acquired realization of the infinite. At least, i give him props for being honest. He also was humble towards lao tzu and chuang tzu, calling them dragons amongst the realm of wisdom while he is nothing compared to them. What im trying to get at is that he did not cultivate the biggest vision one had to have for politics and leadership. In other words, he creates so many quick fixes, good intentions but is lacking in inner game. To some degree, you may say lao tzu and chuang tzu lacks outer game, but id 100% take the guy with inner game down over outer game because the guy with inner game can build his outer game according to his conditions at the different times. Im sorry to say this, but confucius is like a poor man's mystery method. I mean, come on. Filiel piety and nationalism is your greatest idealogy? At least chritianity puts "love" as its idealogy, or buddhism puts "mercy" as its idealogy. Taosim puts "balance nature or tao" as its idealogy. NATIONALISM? FILIEL PIETY? And to the people who still listen to his ideas! Wow it astonishes me.

[Leo Gura]

You have to seriously take into account the historical context of the time and the Spiral stages.

In an ass-backwards stage Purple/Red society, Confucian Blue values are great advance. But today it looks outdated.

Similar to the situation in the Middle East with Islam. It was a great advance over the petty Purple and Red tribalism that exists there for millennia.

[Nahm]

37 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

Dude, who are you? i never see you saying something....to my liking?

"When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."  Jesus

 

[AtheisticNonduality]

25 minutes ago, Nahm said:

"When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."  Jesus

 

That's nice, but you also say nonsensical things.

[Nahm]

@AtheisticNonduality

That quote make sense to you?  

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

"When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."  Jesus

 

That quote gave me goosebumps.

[AtheisticNonduality]

52 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@AtheisticNonduality

That quote make sense to you?  

Yes.

[Nahm]

@AtheisticNonduality

So....ahhh....not exactly a ‘me’ here....being ahhh...’nonsensical’....per se. 

?

? 

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Nahm A part of us is acting in a way that shows a lack of computational understanding of logic, ie. sense, thus this being synonymous with you being nonsensical due to this mind-body associating "nonsensical" with that phenomenon.

[Nahm]

@AtheisticNonduality

? Alrighty then. Much love my man. 

[charlie cho]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to seriously take into account the historical context of the time and the Spiral stages.

In an ass-backwards stage Purple/Red society, Confucian Blue values are great advance. But today it looks outdated.

Similar to the situation in the Middle East with Islam. It was a great advance over the petty Purple and Red tribalism that exists there for millennia.

Yep. I do think I have answered that I agree Confucius had helped china to go up from barbarism from your above post. My parents used to say that. "You must see them in context. Don't judge them with the views of today." Definitely not refuting them on that point. Confucius had done a good thing, but to me, it had only done good until the point of the 18th century. After that, it's only destroying what's left of china and north korea. If you haven't known, if you come to Korea, mannerisms are heavy and if you disobey to hold a certain mannerism towards your elders, you are heavily heavily scorned upon. I mean, it's like the barbaric ages! It's hilarious! You can see this in sports culture, work culture. One of the reasons japan is way better in basketball than Korea and China is because they don't have much of those mannerisms based on age difference, which enacts much of bureaucracy than meritocracy. This also holds true in work culture. I wish I don't sound off like a person with victim mentality here, but the truth is the truth, there is a lot of ageism here, little of meritocracy - you have to experience it yourself though! That's why in one sense, I feel so much hatred towards that ancient scholar. So much trauma that still haunts me to this day.

In context, Confucius was a nice man, but that would not be fair to Lao Tzu, Jesus, and the Buddha who was way older than Confucius. Way more experienced than Confucius. More learned than Confucius, yet they know that "knowing" isn't be all end all. They surrendered all what they have learned and became the infinite mind that confucius can only dream of. I can critisize Confucius this harshly with ease because I know he could have done better with a master like Lao Tzu next to him, yet he missed to actually attain REAL WISDOM! Ah! I like Confucius as a person. I think if I met him, he would be a cool guy to drink tea with. But man, the repurcussions that had lasted to this day, has mentally drained me. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@Nahm A part of us is acting in a way that shows a lack of computational understanding of logic, ie. sense, thus this being synonymous with you being nonsensical due to this mind-body associating "nonsensical" with that phenomenon.

When do we get to meet TheisticNonduality? I bet he is the cooler brother of the two  

[The Buddha]

Confuncious is wise because he understood very well society as a hole and therefore knew how to make everybody happy and confortable. Therefore, people would not search higher realizations because they were okay where they were. Obviously, that triggers those who want to awake society and explains that hate towards him.

[Gesundheit]

Don't make wisdom an ideology. There's no difference between the wise and the fool except in your mind.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

"When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."  Jesus

Cool... I don't even remember that I said that, but I like it.

[Nahm]

@Bazooka Jesus

You set this whole gig up so proper, even you don’t know! So well done sir, soo well done. ? An sorry bout the crossy thingy. We didn’t know either.