Debate on socialism and capitalism

[Danioover9000]

   This debate is about socialism and capitalism. Here, we get to see how a socio-libertarian's view and bias unfolds with a determinist's, due to them having a history. Also good to note the can of worms on the video.

 

[Opo]

1:16:10  is this unhealthy green? 

[Leo Gura]

Ugh.... How insufferable.

I'd rather watching two dogs chase their own tails for 3 hrs.

[Joel3102]

I watched this whole thing, complete shitshow.

it wasn’t really a socialism vs capitalism debate. It was more a debate about the nuances of what standard you should hold your personal actions in the real world in relation to your socialist ideals. Interestingly, even Vaush doesn’t believe it’s wrong as a socialist to employ workers or be a landlord 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Joel3102

[Lyubov]

2 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

I watched this whole thing, complete shitshow.

it wasn’t really a socialism vs capitalism debate. It was more a debate about the nuances of what standard you should hold your personal actions in the real world in relation to your socialist ideals

I think these two just hate each other some it's going to devolve into some "got ya" bullshit 

[Abdelghafar]

I watched it too. I think it was a train-wreck.

[mmKay]

Didnt find a longer loop

[Dryas]

Watched this one on stream and oh boy.. I think you'll start to find most debates very pointless having watched enough of them. And I only realized recently how much of a distraction these debates and political discourse on twitter and twitch (through streamers) are. 

[Leo Gura]

The Founding Fathers would be proud if they knew we were trying to have serious discussions about government over Twitch while playing Fall Guys.

And then we act surprised why our government is so fucked.

[Opo]

Sry I timestamped Destiny's video so it was off. 

Can anyone explain Vaush's perspective to me? 

Why would you value political efficacy over truth and assume that people won't do the opposite of what you want when they figure out your misleading them? 

[Leo Gura]

The big oversight that people like this make is confusing truth with persuasion.

Truth has little to do with persuasion, and what these YT debaters are doing is playing persuasion games. Debate is not a valid method of accessing truth.

Just because something sounds persuasive or reasonable does not make it true.

[Lyubov]

I made it an hour into it. I can't listen anymore. 

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The big oversight that people like this make is confusing truth with persuasion.

Truth has little to do with persuasion, and what these YT debaters are doing is playing persuasion games. Debate is not a valid method of accessing truth.

Just because something sounds persuasive or reasonable does not make it true.

Agree, but if you're trying to persuade someone and you make an obvious lie they'll automatically pull away and you won't be able to get them to the place that you want. Some might even go to the opposite direction. 

That's what I don't understand why would you lie about something just so you could get a more emotionally charged argument? It would only work with people who already agree with you. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Opo

[Leo Gura]

@Opo I don't think Vaush is saying to lie to people. He was talking about presenting a strong rhetorical case more than a focus on facts or data. Which is how you persuade people.

The entire reason right-wing media is so persuasive is because they focus on culture war emotional issues. It has nothing to do with truth, facts, data, or policy. The average rube does not care about anything but emotional appeals.

[Opo]

@Leo Gura Yeah I agree with that.

Thanks. 

[Abdelghafar]

9 hours ago, mmKay said:

 

Perfect analogy.

[Ves]

There's a huge amount of history between Destiny and Vaush that you're missing if you haven't watched Destiny's content before. I'm actually surprised they made up after Destiny's Twitch departnering...

13 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

I watched this whole thing, complete shitshow.

it wasn’t really a socialism vs capitalism debate. It was more a debate about the nuances of what standard you should hold your personal actions in the real world in relation to your socialist ideals. Interestingly, even Vaush doesn’t believe it’s wrong as a socialist to employ workers or be a landlord 

Vaush says he believes this, but it seemed fairly unclear throughout the course of the debate what he actually believed. First, he said it's fine to legally participate in a capitalist system. Destiny replied that you then can't criticize any capitalists then as long as they are legally participating in the system. Vaush seemed not to agree with this, but when Destiny asked him for an example of bad things for a leftie to do under capitalism, he couldn't really come up with anything. I think that Vaush generally believes that you can participate in capitalism as a leftie, but would want you to do better.

I generally don't agree with Vaush's idea that, supposing it's being a landlord is immoral, it's fine for you to be one because someone else will come and replace you if you don't.

I'm not sure if I agree with Destiny that the online left is just as bad as the online right in terms of misinformation. The Gamestop stock misinformation was pretty bad (Destiny is actually going to compile a write-up soon of all the misinformation that was pushed, vs. what actually happened), and there's a lot of stupid people on Twitter, but Vaush correctly says that the right has legitimate QAnon people in office around the country. Destiny did say that he thinks 'in real life', people on the left push less misinformation, he just really despises the online socialists.

Destiny is salty about misinformation on his side, say with the Breonna Taylor case, because when he goes to talk to his mom (a conservative) he has to be like, "yeah, okay, this was wrong, and this is also wrong, but this stuff is definitely true, please believe me." He also just despises misinformation. I've experienced similar things with my dad (although, usually, his version of the left's facts are what people like Alex Jones' says that the left is saying). 

All in all, I usually like Destiny, despite the fact the can be extremely toxic when he's mad. His takes are usually fairly informed. He doesn't always angrily debate random people, he also talks to experts, talks to local political people, has streams where he does research, etc. Recently, he's been doing a lot of canvassing and trying to get active in real-life politics. His work in Georgia was probably decently influential since there wasn't any need to sway a huge amount of votes! 

[Seth]

Call me stupid but Destiny pegs me as yellow. It is just strange that he seems to not understand that systems will always have contradictions.

[Ves]

41 minutes ago, Seth said:

Call me stupid but Destiny pegs me as yellow. It is just strange that he seems to not understand that systems will always have contradictions.

I think I sort of agree. He heavily focuses on logic often times during his debates, but I think that's something that's necessary for a debate. If someone just really loves trump, despite having no reasons to do so, there's not really much to talk about... they cannot be convinced (and they cannot convince you by simply saying "bro, I just like him"). It's also really difficult if someone apparently believes two contradictory things. Are you supposed to refute the belief you don't agree with? Are you supposed to agree with the belief you do agree with? Either case is kind of silly since they believe the opposite as well. That's sort of why he was hyper-focused on Vaush's conflicting beliefs. Destiny also particularly despises people who are blatantly inconsistent.

I'm not sure if all systems have contradictions. I could have a system with two axioms, and assuming I chose them well, it would be consistent. The problem is, such a system would likely be much too simple to be applicable to the """real world""" (or to do much of anything). And, of course, the axioms I choose don't have any objective standing: they're in some sense arbitrarily chosen. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Ves

[Hardkill]

I believe that needs to be a 50/50 balance between capitalism and socialism. Socialism itself is almost as bad communism, but I believe that capitalism itself can get really out of hand when it is not regulated well enough. This is one reason why in my opinion I believe that the Democratic Party, particularly those who are a part of New Democratic Coalition (Clintonian Democrats such as the Clintons, Obama, and Biden), is the most effective political party we have had in the US since the early 1900s. The Democratic Party, especially those from the New Democratic Coalition and other centrist Democrats, have been the best at being socially liberal, fiscally responsible, and making positive progress for our country.