Lifting up base-line consciousness with psychadelics

[Vrubel]

On this forum, I heard multiple times people say including @Leo Gura that psychedelics are not an effective tool for lifting up your baseline consciousness and that other spiritual practices will fill in that function better. But on the other hand, I also read reports where people say they have experienced very solid shifts from psychedelics.

For me personally, I feel I belong to the second category because whenever I come out of a trip I really feel as if a part of me has died and that there is now less of me. Especially after going through the backlash, the heightened base-line solidifies more.

For example, a few months ago I did a trip that actually wasn't that deep, but it has nonetheless heightened my baseline consciousness to a degree where I am still getting used to it because it still feels kinda "foreign", for a lack of a better word. 

Often times I hear that psychedelics are a catalyzer and that's true, most of the heavy lifting for permanent change comes from consciously going-through and surrendering in the backlash. But still, that process happens kinda organically, I don't feel like I need to hardcore disciple myself to do hours-long meditation sits or some esoteric yoga because I find psychedelics and their backlashes already powerful enough for going through this journey.

Am I wrong in taking this attitude?
When does your base-line shift the most?

Edited February 9, 2021 by Vrubel

[BipolarGrowth]

Meditation has made greater baseline shifts for me. I think if someone did a psychedelic retreat where they were tripping at crazy high levels 12 hours a day for 60 days they would almost certainly experience a baseline shift. I say 12 hours a day for 60 days as this is what some people who meditate might need to make a more or less permanent shift. I think if we actually gave psychedelics as much consistent time to work as hardcore meditators gave meditation we would almost certainly experience a similar baseline shift as the meditators did. The problem is no one wants to go that hard with psychedelics. Even Leo’s 30 day 5-MeO experience comes nowhere close to what I’m suggesting. He was probably tripping only a few hours per day at most. I’m talking about using alternating psychedelics (to avoid tolerance issues) so the  practitioner would be near or at breakthrough dose strength for 12 hours a day for a month or two. This will certainly change the brain permanently. The problem is we do a trip every once in a while, lessen activity in the default mode network during the trip, then essentially reconnect everything that was lessened in the default mode network as soon as we are sober again. We don’t give psychedelics ample time to make significant permanent changes. 

[Haumea2018]

9 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Am I wrong in taking this attitude?

There is no right or wrong in this game. If it works for you, it works for you.

It's not a reliable method for most people because you have to be willing to "die"/abandon your "current self" -- voluntarily.  Psychedelics can't force you to surrender.  If you ARE surrendering in the process of taking psychedelics then that's the primary mechanism for your awakening, not the psychedelics themselves.  

[Ry4n]

11 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Meditation has made greater baseline shifts for me. I think if someone did a psychedelic retreat where they were tripping at crazy high levels 12 hours a day for 60 days they would almost certainly experience a baseline shift. I say 12 hours a day for 60 days as this is what some people who meditate might need to make a more or less permanent shift. I think if we actually gave psychedelics as much consistent time to work as hardcore meditators gave meditation we would almost certainly experience a similar baseline shift as the meditators did. The problem is no one wants to go that hard with psychedelics. Even Leo’s 30 day 5-MeO experience comes nowhere close to what I’m suggesting. He was probably tripping only a few hours per day at most. I’m talking about using alternating psychedelics (to avoid tolerance issues) so the  practitioner would be near or at breakthrough dose strength for 12 hours a day for a month or two. This will certainly change the brain permanently. The problem is we do a trip every once in a while, lessen activity in the default mode network during the trip, then essentially reconnect everything that was lessened in the default mode network as soon as we are sober again. We don’t give psychedelics ample time to make significant permanent changes. 

I'm not your Dad but personally I don't think it's worth the risk and would most likely lead to a serious burnout of the highest degree; tripping is absolutely exhausting (which is why I'm currently on break). It very well could lead to a permanent change, but a positive one? I wish, I've seen people go overboard with acid and it literally never has benefits the way responsible use does, they just look absolutely cooked and out of touch with reality. 

That being said the idea of their being some hardcore vipassana style retreat that would also include spaced out responsible use of psychedelics would be fucking awesome. THAT I could get on board with.  

[Vrubel]

17 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Meditation has made greater baseline shifts for me. I think if someone did a psychedelic retreat where they were tripping at crazy high levels 12 hours a day for 60 days they would almost certainly experience a baseline shift. I say 12 hours a day for 60 days as this is what some people who meditate might need to make a more or less permanent shift.

I am not disputing that meditation works better for you. But it is exactly my point that if you pace your psychedelic trips responsibly to allow time for integration, they form a spiritual path which is way less demanding than some hardcore disciplined meditation. Most people (like me) don't have the time nor the internal wiring to do that.

 

[Vrubel]

8 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

 

It's not a reliable method for most people because you have to be willing to "die"/abandon your "current self" -- voluntarily.  Psychedelics can't force you to surrender.  If you ARE surrendering in the process of taking psychedelics then that's the primary mechanism for your awakening, not the psychedelics themselves.  

Well isn’t that obvious. Off course psychadelics have their own challenges which require internal strength, wisdom and experience.

 That’s why you slowly build up if you are a beginner. Overtime you fear decreases and your ability to surrender increases.

[Vrubel]

6 hours ago, Ry4n said:

I'm not your Dad but personally I don't think it's worth the risk and would most likely lead to a serious burnout of the highest degree; tripping is absolutely exhausting (which is why I'm currently on break). It very well could lead to a permanent change, but a positive one? I wish, I've seen people go overboard with acid and it literally never has benefits the way responsible use does, they just look absolutely cooked and out of touch with reality. 

That being said the idea of their being some hardcore vipassana style retreat that would also include spaced out responsible use of psychedelics would be fucking awesome. THAT I could get on board with.  

burnout with tripping? Nobody is forcing psychedelics onto you. If you come all battered from a trip, it’s obvious you need to take a break and practice some self love, integration and surrender. (This is also true for when you come out of a trip just fine.)

doing trips on a daily basis sounds like a very stupid idea if you care about integration and not putting your whole life off-balence.

I am talking about tripping in a responsible way. I will argue that this method is the most energy efficient spiritual path, and most suitable for modern humans. (Not for all people off course, individual characteristics are always at play. )

Edited February 10, 2021 by Vrubel

[Intraplanetary]

10 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

It's not a reliable method for most people because you have to be willing to "die"/abandon your "current self" -- voluntarily.  Psychedelics can't force you to surrender.  If you ARE surrendering in the process of taking psychedelics then that's the primary mechanism for your awakening, not the psychedelics themselves.  

This is amazing u said that. 

Recently, I experienced an ego loss after taking just 2 tabs of LSD. This happened because I made the intention to experience what is and totally accepted my surrender. On this mental state, I tripped and let go of ego, smoothly and beautifully. Incredible experience. I also fasted 5 days prior to the trip and this surely contributed to the whole voluntary ego-dying process.

This experience changed my baseline consciousness big time.

I've done higher LSD doses in the past and never had anything like that. So your statement is right to the point. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Intraplanetary

[BipolarGrowth]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I am not disputing that meditation works better for you. But it is exactly my point that if you pace your psychedelic trips responsibly to allow time for integration, they form a spiritual path which is way less demanding than some hardcore disciplined meditation. Most people (like me) don't have the time nor the internal wiring to do that.

 

I actually hardly meditate anymore. It seems like a complete waste of time almost at this point after feeling the power of psychedelics. I really don’t care about raising some baseline level that much. I’ve lived at ridiculously high baseline levels, and it can easily fuck your life and even be physically dangerous in some cases. 
 

I was not suggesting anyone do the intense psychedelic use I mentioned, but I was merely saying that I believe the reason meditation is usually more effective for baseline shifts is simply because more consistent time is dedicated to it compared to psychedelic use. No one out there has 10,000 hours of trips under their belt. A significant number of meditators do. Daniel Ingram theorized the varied effectiveness on baseline levels for psychs vs. meditation has to do with growing dendrites. There are other plausible theories that could be raised around this as well. Integration is important, but we’re talking about producing baseline, permanent shifts. What I mentioned above will certainly do that, but it would be possibly the most extreme spiritual method ever done. I also never said the baseline shifts produced by that method would in any way be positive from our relative perspective. 

[Consilience]

In my experience, a big issue Ive run into with yielding permanent shifts from psychedelics is that they really de-harmonize the energy body with over use. Yes they’re powerful, but from what I can observe, it takes a long time for the energy body’s “vibration” to smooth back out... which sounds new age af but it’s how my experience has seemed to unfold.  

Psychedelics seem to give the energy body a pump, almost like how lifting in the gym gives muscles the “pump.” When the EB is expanded out like this, we suddenly are conscious of WAY more, but doing this repeatedly seems to create rips in the EB as well from over expansion and the baseline has to recover. Similar to how if a muscle expanded too much it would tear. Same kind of concept seems to be playing out with the EB. 

Ime, and with this observed framework in mind, Ive found that tripping less frequently has yielded better baseline shifts. Because Im letting my overall system fully rest and recover between sessions, Im able to let the trip sink deeper in addition to letting the subtle shifts in energy dissipate. That and A LOT more meditating than when I first started tripping. 

The more sensitive we become to this stuff through sober practice, the more we can start to feel how just a single journey affects us not just a couple weeks after, but even months. Takes a very razor sharp focus, awareness and sensitivity to feel the shifts at this subtly though. 

[Breakingthewall]

For me the problem is that with meditation it is impossible for me to get close to the tearing of the veil that occurs with psychedelics, even in low doses. Lately I've seen the need to meditate as much as possible, partly for pleasure, partly to get deeper, but if I stop doing psychedelics for a while, my mind starts to buzz with questions and there's no way to stop it. a small dose of 5 meo sometimes and a momentary glance at the nothingness that dreams that I am makes everything go back to order. I hope it is no longer necessary, but I wonder how many people really see in normal meditation that it is the infinite nothingness that is dreaming. It would be nice if it were like that every day

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It would be nice if it were like that every day

With rigorous practice, 24/7 contemplation/mindfulness, and deep study of non-duality, it can start become that way. Not on the level of a psychedelic, but on a level that’s radically different than the average person’s baseline, or our own baseline when we began this journey. By rigorous I mean 2+ hours a day of formal sitting, but each person has to determine what they can sustain. Of course this is my opinion and bias so feel free to disagree. 

[Ry4n]

12 hours ago, Vrubel said:

burnout with tripping? Nobody is forcing psychedelics onto you. If you come all battered from a trip, it’s obvious you need to take a break and practice some self love, integration and surrender. (This is also true for when you come out of a trip just fine.)

I was more so replying to Bipolar Growth's suggestion. 

[Ry4n]

9 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’ve lived at ridiculously high baseline levels, and it can easily fuck your life and even be physically dangerous in some cases. 

You sure that isn't just mania? I guess everyone's idea of what that baseline state looks like is different. I'm sure there is much more healthy expressions of a different baseline state. 

[Nahm]

@Vrubel

I play in bands sometimes, so the word hits me differently. When there’s any issue with the baseline, we don’t check the mics, drum kit, pa, boards, etc. We check the baseline. Usually just a tuning issue. 

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Consilience said:

By rigorous I mean 2+ hours a day of formal sitting,

I think it is possible to be serious that way and also avoid ego-reinforcing behaviors. I think that psychedelics are very useful for this, after a trip the baseline is higher and you see how it goes down right away when doing certain things

[BipolarGrowth]

3 hours ago, Ry4n said:

You sure that isn't just mania? I guess everyone's idea of what that baseline state looks like is different. I'm sure there is much more healthy expressions of a different baseline state. 

It was certainly mania but there’s a difference between mania and what you might call “just mania.” For most bipolar people who do not pursue consciousness work, they will experience some heightened consciousness likely to some degree, but it’s nothing compared to what comes in mania with a history of consciousness work behind it. There’s no ultimate law of reality imposed by God that says you can’t be awake AND manic. I would call what the majority of bipolar people experience “just mania.” When you combine a history of consciousness work with mania, these things work synergistically. I personally have found that higher consciousness often triggers mania and mania almost always triggers higher consciousness. Yes, you can be a typical yogi sitting in the lotus position at a high state of consciousness, but you can also experience that same level of consciousness while acting very much against this stereotype. The yogi finds satisfaction in this type of calm expression. This doesn’t mean it’s the only way higher consciousness can be expressed. Many traditional practitioners have a preference or bias to the no-mind state where the ego is generally experienced much less. They likely have not had experiences of heightened consciousness states that can be experienced with full access to the ego. I’ve experienced both. They’re both quite valuable experiences to have. 
 

I was mainly speaking for myself when I talked about not caring too much about baseline levels due to risks to survival. People without bipolar disorder (specifically type 1) and possibly schizophrenia as well I would guess will generally not run into these same risks, but their taste of awakening could very well be much different than what a bipolar type 1 seeker might find. For me, I’ve experienced many states where I was so conscious that I literally did not care about anything typically judged as negative that could happen to my ego. Many of us here have probably experienced that on occasion. Experiencing it during a trip in a relatively safe environment or during meditation is much different from living in that state for prolonged periods of time. I’m rather convinced most people are rather immune to this type of experience at the degrees I’ve experienced it. The highest awakenings almost never behoove survival. A normal person might experience this after being more or less “fully awake” plus taking methamphetamine if I had to guess. 
 

What no neurotypical person will ever tell you is that mania in many ways is an automatic force taking one closer to awakening. A good way to learn about this would be to look into the connections between kundalini and mania as well as the rising and passing away and subsequent dark night of the soul stages experienced in Daniel Ingram’s models of awakening stages. Daniel Ingram is one of the first serious spiritual practitioners I’ve seen who thoroughly recognizes how blurry the line is between certain awakening stages and mania. Will mania usually take anyone there completely on its own? I’m not 100% sure. It’s probably not too likely. Add in some meditation, spiritual study, and high dose psychedelic trips, and you’re basically on the quickest yet most bumpy path I’ve ever seen or heard of toward awakening. The thing about mania is it is clearly a shift in baseline consciousness. This is pretty much undeniable. The bias comes when spiritual people see that baseline shift and discount it. In many cases mania isn’t awakening, but in some cases it is. The more spiritual practice the bipolar person has behind them, the more likely it’s going to become closer and closer to the latter. It’s very similar to meditators or gurus saying psychedelics don’t count. This is just pure bias to the sanctity and exclusivity of one’s preferred method. It also doesn’t appeal to any neurotypical ego that there is a genetically gifted group of people when it comes to awakening that doesn’t involve themselves. Label those gifted people as having a mental illness (which is really just atypical neurology), and you’ve removed credibility from this group of people with stigma. As a cherry on top, make all doctors say this “illness” and psychedelics should never be mixed and pump the “ill” with medications that numb perception and emotion, and you’ve turned a group that was originally more likely to awaken into one of the least likely to awaken. This is basically society shutting down the higher consciousness part of their awakening cycle to leave the bipolar person in what can oftentimes be a more or less permanent dark night if the soul which most people just call bipolar depression. 
 

I can guarantee mania has taken me to higher baseline levels than most spiritual seekers have experienced anywhere outside of a psychedelic peak, and there has been one occasion where mania produced an experience just as potent as any psychedelic peak I’ve ever had without the influence of any substances or even any recent meditation. This likely only happened because of my history with pursuing awakening though. Most bipolar people don’t go into crazy hyper-consciousness nondual God-realization states. They simply go spend money, have sex, and live without much of a filter. That’s “just mania.” Mania + spirituality is a whole different animal. 

[Carl-Richard]

What is really funny is that my baseline skyrocketed when I stopped meditating and stopped pursuing enlightenment 

[Vrubel]

48 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What is really funny is that my baseline skyrocketed when I stopped meditating and stopped pursuing enlightenment 

Isn't it because you truly relaxed and surrendered when you let go of meditating and pursuing enlightenment. Spirituality can definitely work in counter-intuitive ways like this. Though if you never feel the call for spirituality again you must expect to stagnate. Are you fine with that?

Edited February 11, 2021 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

15 hours ago, Consilience said:

In my experience, a big issue Ive run into with yielding permanent shifts from psychedelics is that they really de-harmonize the energy body with over use. Yes they’re powerful, but from what I can observe, it takes a long time for the energy body’s “vibration” to smooth back out... which sounds new age af but it’s how my experience has seemed to unfold.  

Solution: don't overuse psychedelics, set your limits with both the dosages and frequency of the trips. Responsibility with psychedelics requires patience, wisdom, and listing to your intuition.

The more I read posts on this forum the more I realize that responsible use of psychedelics is a very rare thing. No wonder people are so overly wary of them.