Two Paths To Enlightenment

[jse]

Leo, at 44:51 into your very informative "How To Use Psychedelics For Personal Development" video (posted on 7 Aug 16), you've said:

"... And lastly what I'll tell you as a huge warning, as a huge warning and a huge tip, is do not mistake psychedelics as a shortcut for self-actualization, and do not mistake psychedelics as a shortcut to enlightenment.  From everything I've researched, and all the people I've talked to, and I've talked to some very enlightened people about this issue - my understanding is that you will never reach enlightenment through psychedelics. Never. Never ever ever ever."

Then 7 weeks later, at 2:12 of your eye-opening 5-MeO-DMT video, you say:

"... 5-MeO can be used to have genuine enlightenment experiences, and also, not only to have these peak experiences and then coming back down to normal egoic existence, but to actually attain permanent enlightenment.  I think that 5-MeO is capable of doing that."

Leo, as this appears to be an 180-degree turn in your experiential understanding with regards to reaching enlightenment, how do you now view the teachings of the enlightened people that you've previously talked with and read about, who appear to contradict the conclusions from your recent life-changing experience?  Is there a way to reconcile these two apparently opposite views on the journey to enlightenment?

[ajasatya]

imho, leo's mistake was saying that he'd go for the 5meodmt experience instead of the 3 years of enlightenment pursuit.

as i understand, those 3 years of pursuit were fundamental for him to understand what happened on the 5meodmt experience.

the 5meodmt is not a shortcut. it is just another part of his path.

[Kserkkj]

@iago iriarte arhatha  Agreed, but what I think he meant was the depth of his MEO trip compared to his previous Samahdhi's. Of course 3 years of foundational work is far more crucial in the long run than a single trip. The psychedelic is like the exponent while foudational work = the base; isn't a perfect analogy but i think you get the gist of it. 

[Leo Gura]

@jse There's no contradiction really. Most people will never become enlightened through 5-meo because they do not combine it properly with study and practice of nonduality.

Like I said in the 5-meo video, a few trips on 5-meo will NOT make you enlightened.

I have yet to meet a traditional non-dual teacher who has tried heavy doses of 5-meo. So the fact is, they do not know what 5-meo is capable of. Nor do you, unless you've tried it. So keep your mind open.

Also, 5-meo should not be confused with psychedelics at large. It's a totally different beast. Lumping 5-meo together with "psychedelics" is like lumping together NASA's Saturn V rocket with toy rockets for kids you find in hobby shops. One is capable of breaking out of Earth's gravity consistently, the other is not.

When I said that psychedelics will not produce enlightenment, that is generally true for most people. And my top concern was that people listening not get deluded off their self-inquiry paths. It's very hard to talk about all this stuff with you guys because almost no matter what I say, it will get abused by one group of people or another. Those who hate psychedelics will abuse it. Those who love psychedelics will abuse it. Because that's the hallmark of low quality consciousness. It doesn't listen with nuance.

It seems very difficult for people do the following 2 things in combination:

1. Self-inquiry
2. High doses of 5-meo

Instead what people wanna do is take sides and pick ideological fights. But I guarantee that if you did both, consistently, your life would transform in unimaginable ways very quickly.

[jse]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's very hard to talk about all this stuff with you guys because almost no matter what I say, it will get abused by one group of people or another.

Us guys?  Cmon Leo, where is your sense of non-duality...
Anyway, no abuse whatsoever intended on my part - I have the utmost respect and admiration for exceptional beings such as yourself, who not only put so much time and effort into a concentrated life of Self-Actualization, but are also willing to share their knowledge and experience so freely.

Perhaps 5-MeO should not be considered a psychedelic, as it doesn't appear to be a substance that produces hallucinations or distortions of perception.  As such, maybe 5-MeO should be in a new class of itself, something like PsyEgoMortis.

And perhaps we should also have a clear distinction between experiencing enlightenment  and becoming enlightened.  Can repeated enlightenment experiences together with a life of self-inquiry, result in a permanent state of enlightenment?  I for one can hardly wait for Leo's upcoming video interview.

Edited October 7, 2016 by jse
words failed me

[Leo Gura]

@jse To not make use of a tool like 5-meo is an abuse of knowledge in my book

[jse]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@jse To not make use of a tool like 5-meo is an abuse of knowledge in my book

Absolutely agree, Leo.

I would go further and say that the whole "war" against psychedelics is a crime against humanity.

[ajasatya]

46 minutes ago, jse said:

Can repeated enlightenment experiences together with a life of self-inquiry, result in a permanent state of enlightenment?

yes, but it's not enough. it's also necessary a radical shift on your life to a extremely simple and minimalist way of living. you need to eliminate worries.

a spiritual name can be useful too. i'm making a post about it on my journal today.

[jse]

2 minutes ago, iago iriarte arhatha said:

a spiritual name can be useful too. i'm making a post about it on my journal today.

I hadn't given that much thought, but I guess our names should reflect our life path.

As soon as I can find a word or two to describe "he who stumbles along this rocky path named life", then I'll change my given name. 

[ajasatya]

@jse nah, that's not the proper way to use a spiritual name as a tool for enlightenment.

you should not attribute meanings to it otherwise you're just creating another self-image. if you adopt a name that means nothing special, it's the best one.

and having people that call you by your birth name and by your spiritual name is the best context. your identity will dissolve quicker.

Edited October 7, 2016 by iago iriarte arhatha

[Bronsoval]

6 minutes ago, jse said:

I hadn't given that much thought, but I guess our names should reflect our life path.

As soon as I can find a word or two to describe "he who stumbles along this rocky path named life", then I'll change my given name. 

Nissan Pathfinder 

[Leo Gura]

Waiting for someone to start a thread of best post-enlightenment names.

I call dips on Sri McYodanada

[cetus]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To not make use of a tool like 5-meo is an abuse of knowledge in my book

Somebody should enlighten this guy about 5-meo.  And soon!

[Dragallur]

8 hours ago, cetus56 said:

Somebody should enlighten this guy about 5-meo.  And soon!

What the hell? This should go in the joke section immediately (Thanks, this one was great!)

[jse]

10 hours ago, cetus56 said:

Somebody should enlighten this guy about 5-meo.  And soon!

Spiritual enlightenment at a snail's pace...

[cetus]

 

3 minutes ago, jse said:

Spiritual enlightenment at a snail's pace...

@jse I think I see snails on him. 

[Neo]

 

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 Instead what people wanna do is take sides and pick ideological fights. But I guarantee that if you did both, consistently, your life would transform in unimaginable ways very quickly.

I hope you don't see my opinions on this as taking sides or an ideologic fight. I have actually considered trying shrooms simply because of your videos and have never done so before, although it won't be in the near future; I would have to learn to grow them first.

I was really shocked when you went down this path, the week you made everyone wait for what it was, I thought you were going to come back and say, "the drug was fresh air because that's all you need." REALLY.

Secondly, I'm not sure you really considered how difficult to obtain and illegal 5-MeO-DMT is around the world not to mention people popping up on the site asking for it who really don't sound mature enough or capable of being safe.

Finally, have you really considered that the subject matter itself is fairly divisive in it's own right? There's those who are saying in the forums, they were not a religious person until they found these videos, and yet that seems to clash with the drugs videos (not in Leo's mind and definitely in many peoples) but instead of understanding that nuance, above you've blamed those not willing to try drugs as being of "low quality consciousness." 

 

 

 

[Lawrence]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:31 AM, iago iriarte arhatha said:

. it's also necessary a radical shift on your life to a extremely simple and minimalist way of living. you need to eliminate worries.

"The aim of the wise is not to secure pleasure but to avoid pain" - Aristotle