What do you think of hedonism?

[Someone here]

Hedonism is a philosophy of life which says that all that matters and all that is worth pursuing in life is pleasure. 

 Achieving a life of Maximum pleasure and minimizing pain is basically the point of life.  Now of course life is pointless and the point is subjectively assigned by the individual... But that is the only worthy point of life. The only point that makes "sense". 

simply sitting about more on the sofa..eating more good food and going to the pub with friends often. Banging people (or getting banged).. Etc. Maybe even trying drugs for the fun of it.  Why not?   Pain is bad. Pleasure is good. And good IS good. It's it's own goal. It's the end purpose. - - -so is the hedonistic attitude. 

 

What are some flaws of this way of life? Do you actually secretly believe that that's the way to go?  Where can this approach of life fall short? Can you present some arguments against this philosophy? 

 

[Dancer]

God experience maximum pleasure. But he arrived there through pain.

God is a fucking hedonist. In a good way

We are all his little hedonist children.

He is holding our hand through the journey. If we allow him to.

[mandyjw]

What the mind thinks will make it happy is never right. You can't remember actual happiness, only the things that seemed to be around when the feeling arose. So you equate happiness with the things, but if that were true, hedonic adaptation wouldn't be a thing. 

[Someone here]

 

@mandyjw how is happiness separate from specific experiences of specific things?  Is there a pure happiness that comes out of nothing? Also isn't "happiness" itself sort of relative?  What is considered happiness? Some people are happy by pain (masochistic).... This gets deep. 

 

[Preety_India]

Hedonism is a road to disaster. Because it focuses on pleasure rather than happiness. 

It's like chasing a quack doctor instead of a real doctor. 

 

[blackchair]

my best friend is hedonist, he is working VERY stresfull Job and hedonism keeps him in check. for my self?  i dont like it at the moment....i had a full year of hedonism and it didn't work for me. (i think) 

[Tim R]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

@mandyjw how is happiness separate from specific experiences of specific things?  Is there a pure happiness that comes out of nothing? Also isn't "happiness" itself sort of relative?  What is considered happiness? Some people are happy by pain (masochistic).... This gets deep. 

Well I guess to answer that question, we first have to define happiness. 

The way I see it, there's happiness and there's satisfaction. 

Satisfaction is conditional: "if I had a million dollars, if I had had this car, if I had a hot girl-/boyfriend, if I had a bigger house", etc. 

Happiness on the other hand is unconditional: "no matter what, I'm happy."

 

We confuse happiness with satisfaction/hedonism. We think that in order to be happy, certain things must happen. And if these things don't happen, we won't be happy. We've been chasing satisfaction all our lives long, not realizing that it is a complete fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? 

Because to be happy is to be satisfied with what is - satisfaction is something very similar, the only difference: specific things must be. 

We all know what it's like to be satisfied. When we get what we want, we say "I'm happy" and in a sense that's true! Because in that moment we are satisfied with what is, the only difference to happiness is that we are clinging to this specific condition! And if this specific condition seizes to be, we aren't satisfied ("conditionally happy") anymore. 

And happiness drops this conditionality. Happiness drops expectation. Happiness drops the desire for specific conditions; specific events/things/people/feelings/experiences/etc. 

Here's the funny thing: we think that if we drop all expectations and desires, we won't be happy and we won't be unhappy either. We think it will simply be sort of neutral because after all, why should there be any happiness? Doesn't it make much more sense that it will simply be neutral? 

Haha... But what we don't see is this:

 

Happiness is this neutral condition

 

Happiness is the baseline of existence. 

It can't be anything else. Because "no-desire-for-anything-specific-other-than-this" and "that-which-is-now" are the baseline of existence. 

This is just so incredibly obvious. Unconditional happiness is the nature of existence. It's exactly the same way for love, these words "love" and "happiness" are describing the same, only seen from a slightly different point of view. 

So happiness isn't something that comes from anywhere, it is always the case, only it's clouded by desire and expectations for specific conditions other than the current moment. The only way to happiness is to realize what is.

And what is, is always the case, so happiness doesn't come from anywhere. It's not something you get from somewhere else, it's something you find. Don't make the mistake to think that you'll find it in any specific place, you see? Because then you're back again at satisfaction. 

To be happy is simply to be. And you already are, only you think you're not.

 

Here's the trick: the moment you start to realize this, you'll say "oh okay then, I'll drop my desires and expectations so I can realize the unconditional happiness within."

Well. But you're still caught in conditions then. Because you say "if I could drop desire and expectation, I'd be happy."

Same old rat race. 

"What can we do about that?" Why do you wanna do something about that? You see? Your desire to change the current circumstances shows that you still haven't understood! 

No road leads to happiness. Happiness is, and the only way to be happy is to be happy. No method, no way, nothing.

You can't go to where you already are

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

Hedonism is a road to disaster. Because it focuses on pleasure rather than happiness. 

It's like chasing a quack doctor instead of a real doctor. 

 

Yeah but what is happiness and is it really separate from "pleasure"?  It all basically boils down to sensations in the body. 

We don't need abstract off and theorizing about what happiness means.   Actually go back in your past and remember your experiences of happiness. Weren't they linked to specific things (maybe getting high grades.. Buying new iPad.. Getting new friends etc)... Now a hedonist will argue that you just keep doing more and more of these good feeling activities and that's basically what a happy life is! 

@Tim R will come to your lengthy post later ?(off to bed atm lol) 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Someone here

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

Yeah but what is happiness and is it really separate from "pleasure"?  It

When you will do very deep meditation for a long time like many years, you will realize that happiness is different from pleasure. 

It's the first realization on the path of spirituality. 

 

[Tim R]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yeah but what is happiness and is it really separate from "pleasure"?  It all basically boils down to sensations in the body. 

It's not separate from pleasure, pleasure is a form of happiness. 

Is "being" a sensation in your body? Or does "being" somehow include all sensations?

[Someone here]

@Preety_India sounds like a write-off. 

You need to elaborate or address my specific point. 

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Tim R said:

It's not separate from pleasure, pleasure is a form of happiness. 

Is "being" a sensation in your body? Or does "being" somehow include all sensations?

How is "being" the same as happiness? 

Being is such a robust thing. Being includes suffering from diseases. Is diseases and pain included in happiness as being? And if you are going to twist the word to such a degree it becomes meaningless. 

Also not sure why are you always laughing? 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Someone here

[Tim R]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

How is "being" the same as happiness? 

Being is such a robust thing. Being includes suffering from diseases. Is diseases and pain included in happiness as being? And if you are going to twist the word to such a degree it becomes meaningless. 

@Someone here Read my first long reply, there I try to explain it. I'm not twisting any words, on the contrary. And yes, happiness includes diseases and pain. Happiness isn't just a feeling or bodily sensation like joy or sadness. It's much more fundamental. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Tim R

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

Satisfaction is conditional: "if I had a million dollars, if I had had this car, if I had a hot girl-/boyfriend, if I had a bigger house", etc. 

Happiness on the other hand is unconditional: "no matter what, I'm happy."

Two questions.. 

1 - are you saying that obtaining these material things are not going to resul in increase in one's level of happiness and satisfaction in life? Or are you just saying that it will but it's never good enough? 

2 "happy no matter what" doesn't make sense.  You see happiness is a specific thing. A happy face is not a crying face. How is you going to be happy when you are not happy? 

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

We confuse happiness with satisfaction/hedonism. We think that in order to be happy, certain things must happen. And if these things don't happen, we won't be happy. We've been chasing satisfaction all our lives long, not realizing that it is a complete fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? 

Because to be happy is to be satisfied with what is - satisfaction is something very similar, the only difference: specific things must be. 

We all know what it's like to be satisfied. When we get what we want, we say "I'm happy" and in a sense that's true! Because in that moment we are satisfied with what is, the only difference to happiness is that we are clinging to this specific condition! And if this specific condition seizes to be, we aren't satisfied ("conditionally happy") anymore. 

And happiness drops this conditionality. Happiness drops expectation. Happiness drops the desire for specific conditions; specific events/things/people/feelings/experiences/etc. 

Why is it that we imagine happiness to be conditioned by obtaining specific things if that's actually false?  Because if satisfaction as you call it is Indeed induced or can be induced via specific material means.... How is it that it can also be induced without any means whatsoever? If that was the case...why were we chasing those false means in the first place if we could just sit and happy? 

A serious question.. How can you sit and be hungry and be happy? ?

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

Happiness is the baseline of existence. 

It can't be anything else. Because "no-desire-for-anything-specific-other-than-this" and "that-which-is-now" are the baseline of existence. 

This is just so incredibly obvious. Unconditional happiness is the nature of existence. It's exactly the same way for love, these words "love" and "happiness" are describing the same, only seen from a slightly different point of view. 

So happiness isn't something that comes from anywhere, it is always the case, only it's clouded by desire and expectations for specific conditions other than the current moment. The only way to happiness is to realize what is.

And what is, is always the case, so happiness doesn't come from anywhere. It's not something you get from somewhere else, it's something you find. Don't make the mistake to think that you'll find it in any specific place, you see? Because then you're back again at satisfaction. 

To be happy is simply to be. And you already are, only you think you're not.

 

Here's the trick: the moment you start to realize this, you'll say "oh okay then, I'll drop my desires and expectations so I can realize the unconditional happiness within."

Well. But you're still caught in conditions then. Because you say "if I could drop desire and expectation, I'd be happy."

Same old rat race. 

"What can we do about that?" Why do you wanna do something about that? You see? Your desire to change the current circumstances shows that you still haven't understood! 

No road leads to happiness. Happiness is, and the only way to be happy is to be happy. No method, no way, nothing.

You can't go to where you already are

I think what you are referring to is a state of freedom or unconditional openness which is a feature of existence itself.... But then comes the separate self which just happens to be not accepting the present moment and conditions all the time... And it cannot be aligned with this quality of existence fully... Otherwise you will die. If you stopped rejecting pain and suffering you will die. After all.. Why eat if you don't mind being happy with an empty stomach? 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Someone here

[Snader]

I've personally seen hedonism to be really dysfunctional and flawed in terms of experiencing life as rich as possible. Not only you miss a lot by not getting in touch with the ''higher pleasures'', but you also set yourself up for a cycle of unhealthy and self-sabotaging habits. That of course affects the collective too.

One very good friend of mine is a pleasure seeking machine. Right now he is really happy and satisfied with his life. He doesn't even understand that hedonism is a thing, he just sees that it's the way how life should be lived. I've carefully over time tried to explain him my way of living, but he is not conscious enough to get it. It's kinda funny that any endeavor that includes discipline or discomfort is not comprehensible to him. I've observed him and others enough to see how that kind of living backfires. With my friend I've seen hedonism leading to destruction of his relationships, finances, health and other aspects of his life, such as his psychology and emotions. He is really ignorant and resentful for things that cause him pain or discomfort. The scariest thing here is that he's not aware that those problems stem from that. He frames it as ''that's just how life is... we just have to deal with it.''

I've tried to open his eyes carefully so many times with many different methods without any judgments, with no results. Now I've decided to lay back and let his life unravel as nature wants it to. Maybe some huge disaster, loss or painful experience will one day lead him to realization of the problems in the way he lives, or maybe not.

Unfortunately it's not just a personal problem. There is so much toxicity in today's Western Orange societies that lead young people to seek immediate pleasure all the time from all the places. And then when the thirst of material achievement is added, we see all the egoistic and selfish behavior all over. But hey, that's development and that's how people learn and get over it. It's just sad that some people won't learn no matter what happens and so they end up living a pitiful life.

[Tim R]

@Someone here

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

are you saying that obtaining these material things are not going I increase in one's level of happiness and satisfaction in life? Or are you just saying that it will but it's never good enough? 

The latter. Yes, these thing are only going to increase you're satisfaction (which is a form of happiness), but only temporarily. The ego is never fully satisfied. Let that one really sink in, never satisfied. 

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

"happy no matter what" doesn't make sense.  You see happiness is a specific thing. A happy face is not a crying face. How is you going to be happy when you are not happy? 

As I said, happiness includes sadness. Happiness is the inclusion and acceptance of everything, as it is, right now, without the desire to change it in any way.

To be happy doesn't mean that you won't cry or grief when for example someone you love died. You do cry and you do grief, fully accepting the reason for why you're crying and the crying itself. 

Don't confuse happiness with joy. Joy is (a form of) happiness, but happiness isn't joy. 

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Why is it that we imagine happiness to be conditioned by obtaining specific things if that's actually false? 

Because we don't know any better and because we've been conditioned to think that. Therefore it's nobody's fault, not really. Everybody inherits this idea from everybody else, it's the game we play in and on our society. It's simply a false belief, there's nothing more to it.

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

if satisfaction as you call it is Indeed induced or can be induced via specific material means.... How is it that it can also be induced without any means whatsoever?

Because satisfaction is only one form of happiness. Satisfaction can't be induced without any means, it's always bound to certain conditions. 

Unconditional satisfaction* = True Happiness

*this is just a word game to illustrate the point of what happiness is, satisfaction is always conditional

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

If that was the case...why were we chasing those false means in the first place if we could just sit and happy? 

Well as I said, we don't know any better. Sit and be happy, that's exactly it.

28 minutes ago, Someone here said:

But then comes the seperate self which just happens to be not accepting the present moment and conditions all the time... And it cannot be aligned with this quality of existence fully... Otherwise you will die. If you stopped rejecting pain and suffering you will die. After all.. Why eat if you don't mind being happy with an empty stomach? 

Accepting hunger doesn't mean that you'll stop eating. Accepting pain doesn't mean that you'll stop caring for your bodily ailments.

Acceptance doesn't mean saying "yes" to everything. It means saying "Yes" to everything - even to the "no". 

[LastThursday]

17 hours ago, Someone here said:

Hedonism is a philosophy of life which says that all that matters and all that is worth pursuing in life is pleasure.

Isn't pleasure just the bodily manifestation of reward? It's like a pat on the back or thumbs up for doing something positive. So eating is pleasurable, sleeping is, and being in love is, and so on and so forth. These are all healthy pleasures. They're healthy because you have to put effort in to get the reward. The feeling of pleasure is an emotional reminder to do the same thing next time.

Hedonism lacks the effort and/or positivity. It's all reward and no work. So you get pleasurable feelings for drinking alcohol or taking hard drugs or having easy sex with many people or breaking the law or whatever. I'm not talking morality here, just the buzz you get from the behaviours. The behaviours are low effort or potentially physically damaging; a lot of hedonic pleasure is reward that reinforces negativity. In a way, the immorality of hedonism comes out of recognising this negativity - although there's a strong element of religion attached here too.

It would seem like pleasure is not the goal, but actually behaving in a positive way is, and putting effort into things. Positivity here is relative to survival.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by LastThursday

[mmKay]

@Someone here Try it out. All the way.

Watch how unfulfilled you feel the more you get into it and the more pleasure you chase and more pain you avoid. 

Then you realize that the pain of avoiding discomfort outweights chasing pleasure by far. 

And that's what personal development happens naturally? 

What's the next move? 

[commie]

23 hours ago, Someone here said:

A serious question.. How can you sit and be hungry and be happy? ?

Why the fuck not? I'm hungry right now and I don't care if I'm happy (which is another way to say I'm happy). I don't need to eat because my liver can dump enough glucose in my bloodstream to last me a while (don't worry: I won't bore you to death by going on about proteins and so forth). I'll eat whenever. I'm not food insecure so who cares?

Seeking pleasure is as dumb as seeking pain. Pain is awesome and so is pleasure, but seeking either is to miss the point entierly. Hedonism is the epitome of over-intellectualizing.

[Someone here]

On 2/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, Tim R said:

The latter. Yes, these thing are only going to increase you're satisfaction (which is a form of happiness), but only temporarily. The ego is never fully satisfied. Let that one really sink in, never satisfied. 

I get that. But still just because this endless desire of the ego and the inability to be fully fulfilled no matter what doesn't mean that living a painful life is better or even equal to living an exciting life. 

 

On 2/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, Tim R said:

As I said, happiness includes sadness. 

I don't agree with this concept. As far as I know there is no holy book somewhere that says what happiness is. It's subjective. Some people are happy by being religious. Others are happy with torture as I mentioned. Others are happy with watching TV shows etc. And there is no way I'm going to agree that happiness=sadness. That just makes the whole discussion superfluous. 

On 2/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, Tim R said:

Because we don't know any better and because we've been conditioned to think that. Therefore it's nobody's fault, not really. Everybody inherits this idea from everybody else, it's the game we play in and on our society. It's simply a false belief, there's nothing more to it.

I think it's biological programming. Even a cave man from 3000 years ago will naturally gravitate towards finding food and shelter and a partner and will averse against suffering and pain. 

On 2/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, Tim R said:

Sit and be happy, that's exactly it.

Tried it. Didn't work. I felt nothing. 

 

On 2/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, Tim R said:

Acceptance doesn't mean saying "yes" to everything. It means saying "Yes" to everything - even to the "no". 

Saying yes to no means saying no.