Why care about Social Justice?

[Boethius]

@Preety_India Well, last year it seemed like most of the companies abandoned our 45th president and have taken up the cause of Social Justice in the time since. It's hard for me to know what to make of what some people refer to as "woke capitalism".

[commie]

11 minutes ago, Boethius said:

I have so little idea, however, of what it could look like that I don't know how I could help support this.

Simply support freedom. You don't need a blueprint.

[Forestluv]

55 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Social justice is always a threat to a Stage Orange perspective. 

It's not a threat to a Stage Green perspective. 

Since the Orange stage is self-centered, they often perceive anything social-centered as a threat. For example, Orange libertarians see social initiatives as a threat. 

I would add in that Purple, Blue and Green are all social-centric stages. They each have their own version of social justice (relative to their social group). A social group in Blue might be a Christian group or nationalist group. They would be sensitive to perceived threats to their social group. For example "The War on Christmas" or "Cancel culture"

[Vrubel]

Real social justice is about inclusion, equality of opportunity, tolerance, and humanization. 

Healthy patriotism/nationalism genuinely cares about the wellbeing and lifting-up of all the citizens.

[Preety_India]

19 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

"The War on Christmas"

The war on brown people. Jesus was brown. That will fix it!

 

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Real social justice is about inclusion, equality of opportunity, tolerance, and humanization. 

Healthy patriotism/nationalism genuinely cares about the wellbeing and lifting-up of all the citizens.

Yet in reality, how common are nationalists that genuinely cares about the wellbeing and lifting-up of all the citizens? To me, it seems that people who have a nationalist mindset nearly always have a conservative, provincial view of what counts as "nation". For example, nationalists in the U.S. don't consider all citizens of the U.S. to be "real Americans". To nationalists, "Real Americans" are white Christians and they consider "real" American values, traditional things like celebrating Christmas, Thanksgiving, the military and border walls. They won't see U.S. citizens that have immigrated as "real" Americans. As well, poc might be seen as second class citizens.

We could say that this mindset is "unhealthy nationalism", yet then I don't see many "healthy nationalists". People that genuinely care about the wellbeing and lifting-up of all it's citizens don't seem to have strong nationalist views. They are more oriented toward participating within global networks and global humanitarian efforts - such as the Paris Agreement, taking in refugees and giving aid to poor countries. 

[Boethius]

51 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

They won't see U.S. citizens that have immigrated as "real" Americans.

Nationalists pretty much by definition want to maintain a uniform and traditional "sense" of the nation as a whole. So they are deeply sceptical of immigration and not all that interested in "participating within global networks". Overall, I just can't help but read your comment as a Green indictment of Blue, per se.

And yes, in the US nationalism gets mixed up with white supremacy. Just for this reason alone, I am deeply wary of nationalism in the US. But I don't know if hostility to nationalism is "helpful" in the larger scheme of things. I mean, if people on the Left decide (as we basically have) that nationalism in the US is simply verboten, then are we not preparing the way for more unhealthy manifestations of the (apparently basic) human yearning for national solidarity? I am thinking, of course, of the 45th president when saying this.

[Jacob Morres]

i wondered this too. why care about social justice? 

if you've been on the side of the pain, you will deeply understand the other people's pain and you will be more understanding and compassionate to their struggles. because from my POV, actual injustice is occurring 

and when you understand some form of that pain you will want to stand up for other's who are facing similar pains

i guess the central point is empathy  

Edited February 7, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Vrubel]

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Yet in reality, how common are nationalists that genuinely cares about the wellbeing and lifting-up of all the citizens?

I feel there is a lot of caricaturing and demonization of stage blue on this forum. That's how it is I guess, I have no interest in arguing with that. But I as an individual have another outlook on life.

A nationalist is in the strictest/purest terms somebody who loves the country he lives in, that's it, nothing more. I have kind of a diverse background in the sense that I have lived in multiple countries and have parents from a different background altogether. I just can't help but have deep passions for the places I associate with and live in. That's how I go through life.

I don't know maybe that's just my personality, I feel very connected to those places. I can definitely expand my love but I can't stop loving the things I already love, that's absurd and self-abusive.

When Corona is over I am actually considering becoming a tour guide in Amsterdam as a side-job. That way I hope to combine my passion for the city with my passion for history.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Vrubel

[DocWatts]

I'm assuming the OP's question was directed at people who themselves aren't being directly affected by things like racism, sexism, etc.

My intuition is that caring about Social Justice comes as a consequence of an increased compassion for other people, and by becoming more informed about the the numerous ways that Society is patently unfair.

[Forestluv]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I feel there is a lot of caricaturing and demonization of stage blue on this forum. That's how it is I guess, I have no interest in arguing with that. But I as an individual have another outlook on life.

A nationalist is in the strictest/purest terms somebody who loves the country he lives in, that's it, nothing more. I have kind of a diverse background in the sense that I have lived in multiple countries and have parents from a different background altogether. I just can't help but have deep passions for the places I associate with and live in. That's how I go through life.

I don't know maybe that's just my personality, I feel very connected to those places. I can definitely expand my love but I can't stop loving the things I already love, that's absurd and self-abusive.

When Corona is over I am actually considering becoming a tour guide in Amsterdam as a side-job. That way I hope to combine my passion for the city with my passion for history.

 

I see it as a spectrum of degrees. To me, you are describing endearment and patriotism. Further along the spectrum would be nationalism. Even further on the spectrum would be neo-Nazism. 

[Carl-Richard]

Because that is what politics is about, what society is for.

[Vrubel]

53 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I see it as a spectrum of degrees. To me, you are describing endearment and patriotism. Further along the spectrum would be nationalism. Even further on the spectrum would be neo-Nazism. 

Is that your personal assessment or is this an established "scientific" spectrum you are talking about? Just curious because the terminology is not that well defined, what is the difference between a nationalist and a patriot for example. And I am sure that a neo-nazi is royally endearing his race. With terminology like you mentioned, it's important to look beyond the connotation, stigmatization, and automatical box-ins. For example, if I say nationism your brain will maybe automatically go to MAGA or the nazis. 

Also to me, neo-nazis have nothing to do with patriotism. Like really you are an American or a Russian neo-nazi? what about your grandparents that fought and suffered a great deal because of nazism? I don't even consider neo-nazis nationalists, they are the ultimate traitors.  

 

[aurum]

18 hours ago, Boethius said:

I expect that's what we will be doing as we move into the future. I have so little idea, however, of what it could look like that I don't know how I could help support this.

That's the question I've been asking for a long time.

If the "old world" is crumbling, what does the "new world" look like, and how do we get there?

What I've found is that it's not one answer. It's a synthesis of changes to a wide variety of institutions and systems. Changes in economics, politics, media, agriculture, technology, ecology, health-care, relationship dynamics, law, education and just about anything else you can think of.

Seek and you will find. The answers, at least the best answers we can come up with at this moment, are out there.

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Is that your personal assessment or is this an established "scientific" spectrum you are talking about? Just curious because the terminology is not that well defined, what is the difference between a nationalist and a patriot for example.

There have been lots of theory about the difference between patriotism and nationalism. A google search would reveal many articles and videos. Yet of course there is relativity. There is no objective definition that is universally agreed by everyone. As well, spectrums are continuous and don’t have clear boundaries. 

52 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

With terminology like you mentioned, it's important to look beyond the connotation, stigmatization, and automatical box-ins. For example, if I say nationism your brain will maybe automatically go to MAGA or the nazis. 

That is an inherent feature of language. People do not give the exact same meaning to a word. Yet if we use words as they are not commonly used, there will be confusion.

As well, context is important. The term “conscious” has very different meaning to a football coach vs a mystic.

52 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Also to me, neo-nazis have nothing to do with patriotism. Like really you are an American or a Russian neo-nazi? what about your grandparents that fought and suffered a great deal because of nazism? I don't even consider neo-nazis nationalists, they are the ultimate traitors.  

Things at opposite ends of a spectrum have differences.. For example, there is a spectrum from short to tall. It is inaccurate to call a professional basketball player a midget. They are at opposite ends of the height spectrum. 

As well, it is inaccurate to call someone patriotic a neo-Nazi. They are on different ends of a spectrum.

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

As well, it is inaccurate to call someone patriotic a neo-Nazi. They are on different ends of a spectrum.

As long as I can be on the most opposite part of any spectrum from Nazis, I am satisfied. (;