Why care about Social Justice?

[Boethius]

I feel one of the most under-examined questions in the world of Social Justice is why anyone would want to engage with the work of social justice in the very first place. I worry that people might even find this line of inquiry itself to be a bit of a provocation, which is not my intent. Instead I suspect that those of us who are interested in Social Justice have a variety of different reasons and motivations for engaging, and that it could be enlightening and useful to lay out some of those reasons and motivations. So why do you care about Social Justice?

[commie]

This is not at all provocative. Some people (especially believers) have ulterior motives but for most people I expect it's a mountains/rivers type of thing. Like, I enjoy birdsongs as well.

But I wouldn't use the distasteful words "social justice" (never mind capitalizing them!) since I'm not a believer.

Edited February 6, 2021 by commie

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Boethius said:

So why do you care about Social Justice?

It's simple. 

I empathize with other people so when some social injustice hurts them it ends up hurting me. 

[aurum]

@Boethius

It's a really good nuanced question.

From a stage Orange perspective, it's hard to see the value of social justice. Is social justice going to get me more power, status or money? Will I gain survival advantage? Will I get more sex? The answer is probably no.

In fact, social justice can be a threat to a stage Orange perspective. If my goal is to become a billionaire hedge fund manager, but then you've got a bunch of SJWs talking about "wealth inequality" and "tax the rich", you're actually a threat.

So on the one hand, it's unlikely that people will care about social justice if they are in a shitty Game Theory scenario whereby defecting on the well-being of the whole leads to personal gain. Perverse incentive structures need to be solved.

At the same time, I believe that caring about social justice comes from an increase in our empathy for the world around us. The more I see myself in you, the more I feel we are connected, the more I feel your well-being is coupled to my well-being.

This also extends beyond humans. I can feel that same connection or empathy for a tree or a bug.

It's a total expansion of one's sense of Self.

Edited February 6, 2021 by aurum

[Willie]

Social justice is about having compassion for others, because others are an illusion. It’s all you. So, have compassion for your Self!

[Boethius]

@commie Do you feel yourself accountable to some of the things that Social Justice demands of people, even if you don't particularly believe in it?

[Boethius]

@aurum I've found it strange watching companies the past few years become socially conscious. I guess they've been doing it as a way of protecting their bottom line, since customers these days want to spend their money in ways that are socially and environmentally responsible. But I've found the commercials of companies saying that they "put people first" to be kind of bizarre and disingenous. Fundamentally, I believe companies exist to make money and are incapable of having a conscience.

This is unlike humans, of course, who do have consciences and who do not exist for the sake of maximizing their own personal financial portfolios -- regardless of how much their behaviors say otherwise  Do you have any thoughts on moving from an empathetic sense of care toward concrete action?

[commie]

11 minutes ago, Boethius said:

@commie Do you feel yourself accountable to some of the things that Social Justice demands of people, even if you don't particularly believe in it?

I don't feel accountable at all, and there's very little I believe in (though that includes other minds, a notion which is generally uncontroversial but I feel I should mention it considering there are solipsists here).

[Parththakkar12]

5 hours ago, Boethius said:

I feel one of the most under-examined questions in the world of Social Justice is why anyone would want to engage with the work of social justice in the very first place. I worry that people might even find this line of inquiry itself to be a bit of a provocation, which is not my intent. Instead I suspect that those of us who are interested in Social Justice have a variety of different reasons and motivations for engaging, and that it could be enlightening and useful to lay out some of those reasons and motivations. So why do you care about Social Justice?

It serves us immensely to look at issues of social justice if we have a Life Purpose and we want to help the world. There is a lot to learn from history, from happenings around us, about the world in general. If you are someone who does not want to be an island unto oneself, if you want to live a life that's connected with society and you want to contribute to it in some way, shape or form, it serves you immensely to look at the problems people are facing and how they're going about solving them.

[Forestluv]

Individuals identify within social groups - they have a vested interest in both self and group welfare. The welfare of the group impacts the welfare of the human individual. An athlete has interests for both self and their identified group. If the referee calls a foul on a team player, the entire team gets upset. This can be expanded to anyone that identifies with the team - including coaches , owners and fans. They will all get upset since there was an injustice against their social group.  Identifying with social groups and desiring fairness for your social group provides connection and security. Yet the creation of a social group also creates an out-group. And out-groups will have their own interests. Some interests will overlap with other groups, other interests will be unique and some will be in conflict. MAGA, Qanon and Proud Boys have both common interests and unique interests. Yet MAGA and BLM have conflicting social interests. They both want social justice, yet they have very different views on what counts as “social justice”. 

[aurum]

30 minutes ago, Boethius said:

I've found it strange watching companies the past few years become socially conscious. I guess they've been doing it as a way of protecting their bottom line, since customers these days want to spend their money in ways that are socially and environmentally responsible. But I've found the commercials of companies saying that they "put people first" to be kind of bizarre and disingenous. Fundamentally, I believe companies exist to make money and are incapable of having a conscience.

I believe your intuition is correct.

If we are playing a fundamentally rivalrous game such as capitalism, and a company declares that they are acting in a non-rivalrous way, then our suspicion is that this is simply another rivalrous strategy.

In such a game, companies that act rivalrous win and get selected for in a type of "economic natural selection". Companies that do not lose the game and therefore go out of existence.

I believe people mistakenly think capitalism is non-rivalrous because of the opportunities for collaboration. You and I can start a business together and both make money, or we could do some sort of cross promotion where we both make sales. But micro-level cooperation does not negate macro-level rivalry. Especially not when even at the micro-level, I can potentially defect on our cooperation and be better off (e.g business partner cheating another business partner).

Companies could have a conscience. But we have to examine what the rules of the game are and structure for non-rivalry in order for that to really be convincing.

43 minutes ago, Boethius said:

Do you have any thoughts on moving from an empathetic sense of care toward concrete action?

I think we can look at this question both from an individual level and collective level.

On an individual level, a lot of concrete action arises naturally from that state of consciousness. I am naturally inspired to help someone, or read something, or plant a tree, or who knows.

The goal on the individual level should be to be highly tuned into one's intuition. Which requires constant listening and awareness.

That may not be as concrete as you were looking for, but to me it's the foundation.

On a collective level, an empathetic sense of care will look like changing our systems, most notably the economic system. Which will move us into a place to heal the ecological and social crises we face.

[commie]

10 minutes ago, aurum said:

Companies could have a conscience. But we have to examine what the rules of the game are and structure for non-rivalry in order for that to really be convincing.

Companies do, both because the rules aren't the same for all companies and because enforcement of the rules is contingent.

 

[Boethius]

@Forestluv Do you see any sensible way for balancing the interests between competing groups, like Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter for example? I struggle in thinking that an individual like myself simply has to "choose" one group over the other as the object of my sympathy.

[aurum]

23 minutes ago, commie said:

Companies do, both because the rules aren't the same for all companies and because enforcement of the rules is contingent.

I’m not following. What would be an example of what you’re speaking about?

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Boethius said:

@Forestluv Do you see any sensible way for balancing the interests between competing groups, like Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter for example? 

Perhaps more people developing the meta awareness, so a group identity of human-ness. 

2 minutes ago, Boethius said:

@Forestluv Do you see any sensible way for balancing the interests between competing groups, like Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter for example? I struggle in thinking that an individual like myself simply has to "choose" one group over the other as the object of my sympathy.

I often sympathize stronger with one side. Yet sometimes I feel a general heart-ache for for anyone experiencing the pain of injustice, regardless of who is experiencing it. 

[Preety_India]

Social justice is always a threat to a Stage Orange perspective. 

It's not a threat to a Stage Green perspective. 

 

[Boethius]

42 minutes ago, aurum said:

I believe people mistakenly think capitalism is non-rivalrous because of the opportunities for collaboration.

That's probably true. I guess a lot of people aren't really aware of what capitalism is or how it works, which might explain why people start saying things like "capitalism is evil" once they start to gain an awareness of the limitations of how it operates.

On the other hand, I look at something like the "Thank You NHS" social phenomenon and I feel so much cringe. Like, I probably don't want to live in a society where we start applying personalities to our companies. I kind of prefer having companies be "known" entities, even if those entities are fundamentally "selfish" in nature.

45 minutes ago, aurum said:

On an individual level, a lot of concrete action arises naturally from that state of consciousness. I am naturally inspired to help someone, or read something, or plant a tree, or who knows.

The goal on the individual level should be to be highly tuned into one's intuition. Which requires constant listening and awareness.

That may not be as concrete as you were looking for, but to me it's the foundation.

I find that when people ask me if I want to help out with something, my initial (defensive) reaction is to say "no". But that if I pause and take a moment to think about it -- or even better yet, just jump to saying "yes" -- then I usually feel better about it all afterwards. So to your point, I should probably keep up that practice.

48 minutes ago, aurum said:

On a collective level, an empathetic sense of care will look like changing our systems, most notably the economic system. Which will move us into a place to heal the ecological and social crises we face.

I expect that's what we will be doing as we move into the future. I have so little idea, however, of what it could look like that I don't know how I could help support this.

[Boethius]

@Preety_India Are you at war with Stage Orange?

[Preety_India]

@Boethius maybe stage orange is at war with social justice. 

 

[commie]

31 minutes ago, aurum said:

I’m not following. What would be an example of what you’re speaking about?

Not sure what you're asking. You must be aware that most companies aren't actually threatened by lawsuits, bankrupcy or a hostile takeover. Likewise you must be aware of monopolies.

If you're asking about principles, well for one thing there's this thing called capital: if you have enough, you can do whatever. Like, that's the whole fucking point of capitalism. You've also got government-linked companies obviously. Basically, companies derive freedom of action from any form of power.

Edited February 6, 2021 by commie
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