Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb which again, is Sam's point. This 'limited' contraction (materialism) is the only paradigm in which this conversation ever 'matters'. It is Rupert’s point, Sam doesn’t get it the way we do. He believes the contraction to be “it”, the map to be the territory. Otherwise he’d be the one teaching the direct path. Edited February 7, 2021 by Mannyb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @Mannyb Sam and I agree that it doesn't matter, unless it does. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 53 minutes ago, VeganAwake said: There was never an ocean either ❤ Metaphors are used as pointers. Doesn't mean one believes things exist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb Sam and I agree that it doesn't matter, unless it does. Misery loves company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @Mannyb good thing I'm alone (oneness), and there is no company. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb good thing I'm alone (oneness), and there is no company. Good luck explaining that to Sam, with whom you seem to agree to things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Natasha said: Yes, it's a shift in perspective and any Self-realized being knows that. However we still use language to communicate and deliver these perspectives, while fully knowing the existential reality. Illusion fighting the illusion. It's not a shift, it's the collapsing or death of the sense of self which is simultaneously recognized to have never been real in the first place. There isn't a self at all in any language. There isn't a higher self, a lower self, a self realized self or anything in between. Post real awakening these misunderstandings are recognized as nothing more than continued projections of the illusory self within the dream story attempting to rebuild its box of knowing...❤ "Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true" - Adyashanti Edited February 7, 2021 by VeganAwake “Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle. "I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) @Mannyb 'I' could only ever explain it to 'him' while predenting it's not true. This would be tantamount to convincing a character in my dream that they are just a character in my dream. Edited February 7, 2021 by Mason Riggle "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @VeganAwake 8 minutes ago, VeganAwake said: It's not a shift, it's the collapsing or death of the sense of self which is simultaneously recognized to have never been real in the first place. There isn't a self at all in any language. There isn't a higher self, a lower self, a self realized self or anything in between. Post real awakening these misunderstandings are recognized as nothing more than continued projections of the illusory self within the dream story attempting to rebuild its box of knowing...❤ "Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true" - Adyashanti Agreed, but how is this not a perspective? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Mannyb said: Nor a universe, which Sam believes in haha But I'm talking about the ocean of knowing otherwise known as the Mind Matrix. “Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle. "I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb 'I' could only ever explain it to 'him' while predenting it's not true. This would be tantamount to convincing a character in my dream that they are just a character in my dream. That’s precisely how you became aware of the dream, another character told you, isn’t it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, VeganAwake said: But I'm talking about the ocean of knowing otherwise known as the Mind Matrix. “But yes, one seamless ocean and all apparent things like currents within the ocean.” Rupert Spira Edited February 7, 2021 by Mannyb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @Mannyb the characters of my dream only exist while I'm in it. To admit of the 'realness' of the characters in my dream is to be lost in the dream. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb the characters of my dream only exist while I'm in it. To admit of the 'realness' of the characters in my dream is to be lost in the dream. True. Doesn’t change the fact that while you/I were identifying with a character, that character was “pushed” to admit to being aware of the dream by another seeming “character” at first, only to realize that I am always aware of being aware. Edited February 7, 2021 by Mannyb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 16 minutes ago, Natasha said: @VeganAwake Agreed, but how is this not a perspective? Words will always will be understood differently. There will always appear to be an individual perspective until there's not. ❤ “Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle. "I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @Mannyb it would be ridiculous for me to think I'm a character in someone else's dream. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Mannyb it would be ridiculous for me to think I'm a character in someone else's dream. Although, according to Sam you might be, who really knows? That is true agnosticism, isn’t it? Since you find it ridiculous, you don’t truly agree with him, if you did, you’d find it reasonable. Edited February 7, 2021 by Mannyb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, VeganAwake said: Words will always will be understood differently. There will always appear to be an individual perspective until there's not. ❤ Indeed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 @Mannyb I doubt Sam entertains the idea that he is a character in someone else's dream. He is pretty adamant that the self is an illusion, without making any claims about 'who' is the Illustrator. His point is- if there's no 'materialism', then there is no 'you' or 'me' who can be 'convinced' of anything. Without being lost in the dream, there are no characters in the dream. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said: If you think there's a Sam Harris who doesn't 'get it', that only comes from a place of 'not getting it'. You're the epitome of conflating the relative with the absolute. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
