Why is Enlightenment random?

[Max_V]

This has been on my mind for a while.

Although personally I'm not at a point where I've chosen to full on pursuit enlightenment, this is because there are many things I need to work on first, from all the sources I've read and listened to it appears to me that Enlightenment is a random thing, not something that one can instantly choose to have happen. 

From those that have a deeper understanding of the Universe than me, why does it work this way? It seems so weird that the people that have chosen to step into complete Truth cannot just decide to awaken, but have to wait for some random moment.

All the best. 

[Leo Gura]

Your framing is wrong. It's not random at all.

It's like saying that catching fish is random. Only seems that way to unskilled fishermen.

If you use a stick of dynamite you will catch fish every time. But if you insist on catching fish with your hands, then you will struggle and it will seem random.

[Max_V]

@Leo Gura 

I see.

So is it just a matter of finding methods that work for you and becoming skilled in using them?

[Raptorsin7]

9 minutes ago, Max_V said:

this is because there are many things I need to work on first,

Why do you have to work on things first before becoming enlightened?

The best time is always now

[nistake]

I've also been wondering the same thing. I came to the conclusion that it may seem random, but we tend to forget about the hundreds of layers of social conditioning, false beliefs and all the unconscious material that are stuck in our psyche. Of course, there are rare cases when enlightenment happens instantly (like Eckhart Tolle), but the majority of people have got to do many years of purification work. I don't have any experience with psychedelics, but I can definitely see why they can help so much in the spiritual growth.

[Tim R]

18 minutes ago, Max_V said:

 It seems so weird that the people that have chosen to step into complete Truth cannot just decide to awaken, but have to wait for some random moment.

Although it is true that you can't do anything about it, I agree with Leo on this point:

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not random at all.

Because nothing is random, not really.

Of course, it may seem to be random, depending on your perspective; if you think that you are the one who can bring about enlightenment, it will seem random. 

What do you mean when you say "random"? That's the real question here

Nothing is random, but equally, nothing is "chosen" and you are therefore not able to bring about enlightenment. There's nothing you can do about it, only when you think you can, it will (or won't) happen "randomly".

Edited February 3, 2021 by Tim R

[Max_V]

9 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do you have to work on things first before becoming enlightened?

The best time is always now

Although I do somewhat understand your perspective, my own introspection said something different.

I started pursuing enlightenment when I was 16. After about 2 or 3 years of meditating and contemplating the nature of my self every day, I realised that I was hugely bypassing parts of my life that needed growing first. The strength of me as person, discipline, my life purpose, social anxiety, learning more about who I am as a person, dating. These things I feel like need attention first. Whenever I reach a moment where that towel is completely squeezed dry, I will do nothing but contemplate until I find the truth. 

7 minutes ago, Tim R said:

What do you mean when you say "random"? That's the real question here

I mean random in this sense:

If I sit down right now and ask "who am I?", I don't grasp it. (of course, I might, but the many times I've tried up until now nothing clicked)

This makes me think it isn't in my control when it happens, apart from growing myself and metaphorically getting to a place where lightening has more chance to strike. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Most people's method for awakening is like trying to catch fish with bare hands.

Horribly ineffective. And then when you tell them to use a net or stick of dynamite they demonize you for it because they have been brainwashed that unless a fish is caught with bare hands it isn't a real fish.

Human spiritual technology is still in the Dark Ages. Like trying to saw down a tree with your teeth because you saw a beaver do it that way.

[Tim R]

31 minutes ago, Max_V said:

This makes me think it isn't in my control when it happens, apart from growing myself and metaphorically getting to a place where lightening has more chance to strike. 

Yes, true. It isn't in your control. And yes, you can grow yourself to a place where a strike is more likely to happen, but don't think for one moment that this is in your control either.

Abandon the notions of control and randomness, because neither is the case. Easier said than done, right? Yeah.. 

Have you ever experienced in meditation your breath becoming both happening and doing at the same time? Where what you felt "your doing" became the same as "happening to you"? Where your breath melted into the process that is the same process as everything that's going on? The one process? 

[Tim R]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Human spiritual technology is still in the Dark Ages

@Leo Gura Maybe it will be a similar development like with computing capacity? 99% of the time not very much going on much, and then, bam! Spiritual technology sounds fancy and futuristic

[allislove]

I love the dream analogy, though, it works only to some extent.

Sara is dreaming Bob. There is dreaming happening, so Bob asks: "Why is lucid dreaming random? From those that have a deeper understanding of the Dream than me, why does it work this way? It seems so weird that the people that have chosen to step into complete Lucidity cannot just decide to awaken, but have to wait for some random moment.".

From the Bob's limited perspective it seems it's random and a dream character can choose lucid dreaming. Everything is Sara's imagination in the dream. How can we help Bob to lucid dream? We can't, since the separate Bob is just Sara's imagination. Sure, there are tools in the dream that may or may not help to see the Lucidity. Imagine we may turn off the appearance of the whole dream for a moment, or put Bob in a very different content of the dream. Will Sara realize that there is no Bob, that she can truly enjoy her dream since there is only Sara in the dream? Only Sara knows  

[nistake]

@allislove Hi Rupert 

[allislove]

@nistake ?

[Bodhitree]

I’ve wondered about this, and thought that perhaps enlightenment is more common than we think, but since it is a phenomenon of no-mind it is often not visible to the part of us that is still wrapped up in the mind. The links between the no-mind and the mind are often not clearly established, and the mind carries a lot of baggage, so if the no-mind experiences enlightenment perhaps the mind won’t notice.

A friend of mine spent six months meditating two hours every day, and then had an experience around a raspberry which he ate. It was as if all his senses came alive to that raspberry, it was a deep bliss, and the next morning he woke up with no desire for smoking, he changed his eating habits, his blood pressure reverted to normal and he no longer needed meds for it after many years, and he felt energetic and very creative. He ended up buying a lot of materials from an arts and crafts store and became an artist. He taught himself to play the violin. It was a turning point in his life.

Now I wouldn’t say this friend suddenly became wise and cosmically knowledgeable, but something definitely happened to him. Perhaps it was a mini-enlightenment which didn’t fully penetrate to his mind.

[Aaron p]

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do you have to work on things first before becoming enlightened?

 

The best time is always now

... awakening is scary. 

[Rilles]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Like trying to saw down a tree with your teeth because you saw a beaver do it that way.

?

[tsuki]

Randomness is a way of thinking about uncertainty. It does not occur in reality.

[Hulia]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And then when you tell them to use a net or stick of dynamite they demonize you for it because they have been brainwashed that unless a fish is caught with bare hands it isn't a real fish.

What are net or stick of dynamite? Psycedelics? Shamanic breathing too? Are there also more nets and sticks?

Because psycedelics are illegal and I don´t know, if I´ll be able to get access to them. Besides now everything is closed because of lockdown. 

[Tim R]

56 minutes ago, Hulia said:

What are net or stick of dynamite?

The dynamite is 5-MeO for sure

[Aaron p]

3 minutes ago, Tim R said:

The dynamite is 5-MeO for sure

Yh