Gaslighting

[Surfingthewave]

When it comes to discussing dating and relationship issues on this forum particularly when it comes to sex I've observed many forum members gaslighting. It's important to discuss this openly to inform those who may not understand what it is. 

According to the source psychology today gaslighting is a psychological term that describes a manipulation tactic used to attain and maintain power over someone. 

I have experienced a man doing this to myself in the past because I am female. I was not aware of it at the time but was made to feel I was a victim and it was my fault. It is important to note it is also a form of emotional abuse. 

I think there are lots of you who could benefit from looking into this more as I have just experienced it in the last thread which was locked and I can also see it happening in another thread.

It's important not be silenced over this. It's also important to note it's not just women that experience gaslighting. This isn't about being woke or cancellling anyone this about bringing an important issue to the fore.

The MeToo movement was so powerful as so many women came forward to point out the abuse they had experienced. This left many men feeling scared to have honest and open conversations about what is acceptable and what isn't. 

[SamC]

I looked at the thread and I will be completely honest with you, I didn't interpret any gaslighting. 

My interpretation of what happend was that you found that thread sexist and got triggered by it. That's why you said " keep on dreaming buddy, that's the closest you will get" ( which is a manipulation tactic btw) 

Just because people say you're wrong or question what you belive doesn't mean that it is gaslighting.

But that's of corse how a victim mentality mindset interpret it as. In a matter of fact,  you will probably say that I'm gaslighting which actually comically enough is the real gaslighting. 

I get it. It's super fucking important to fight for equality and your point and opinions are super valid. Maybe that thread was sexsist, but just because some people don't agree with you and vocie that doesn't mean that they are gaslighting. Only that they have a different point of view on the matter.

I have been gaslighted myself by a girl who says that everything is my fault and that I should change, so the core message of the post is amazing and super important. Investigate gaslighting! But do it deeply and also look for it within yourself.

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

 

When someone tells you that you have a victim mindset it's gaslighting. Especially when all you are trying to do is bring an issue to the fore

 

But instead of trying to understand that problems exist, there's this shallow need to blame everything on the person expressing their opinions. 

Now before anyone starts jumping on me, I better be out of this thread. 

No one says problems doesn't exsist. Pointing out a victim mentality is not gaslighting. 

Saying that pointing out when someone has a victim mentality is gaslighting is the real gaslighting.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, SamC said:

Saying that pointing out when someone has a victim mentality is gaslighting is the real gaslighting.

You know what nobody has the right to judge if someone is playing victim or not. Your logic doesn't work. Go tell real victims of abuse that they have victim mentality. No they don't. They are victims. And they need healing and support and not judgement, blame and shame. Because you don't walk in their shoes, you easily get the right to judge them. No. First feel how they feel and you will not say have victim mentality. Without truly understanding their pain, your claims are bogus. 

 

[Gesundheit]

There is a distinction to be made between being gaslit by someone, and being stuck in a victim's mindset. It requires certain levels of maturity and emotional intelligence to be able to see that distinction.

• Gaslighting is an intentional manipulative behavior that does not consider the best interests of the person who is being gaslit, and often times it aims at hurting them.
• Being stuck in a victim's mindset is a lack of insight or ability to see what's possible outside of the current paradigms, while denying that that could even be the case. It's very similar to closed-mindedness, except that it has an additional layer of victim persona.

Victims can easily confuse the two dynamics, as it is the case in the other thread. And the ones who try to help are usually the ones who get the most trouble. Because how can you get the blind to see? You see?

But victims are not just blind like a normal closed-minded person, they're blind and yet they believe that they have perfect sight. And then when you come and tell them that there's something wrong with their lenses, and that they can be cleaned up, you will be called a gaslighter, of course.

This confusion is a classic ego-mind survival strategy to maintain itself from dissolution. The ego does not like to be called out on its BS as much as the shadow does not like to be exposed to the light.

[Gesundheit]

21 minutes ago, SamC said:

I looked at the thread and I will be completely honest with you, I didn't interpret any gaslighting. 

My interpretation of what happend was that you found that thread sexist and got triggered by it. That's why you said " keep on dreaming buddy, that's the closest you will get" ( which is a manipulation tactic btw) 

Just because people say you're wrong or question what you belive doesn't mean that it is gaslighting.

But that's of corse how a victim mentality mindset interpret it as. In a matter of fact,  you will probably say that I'm gaslighting which actually comically enough is the real gaslighting. 

I get it. It's super fucking important to fight for equality and your point and opinions are super valid. Maybe that thread was sexsist, but just because some people don't agree with you and vocie that doesn't mean that they are gaslighting. Only that they have a different point of view on the matter.

I have been gaslighted myself by a girl who says that everything is my fault and that I should change, so the core message of the post is amazing and super important. Investigate gaslighting! But do it deeply and also look for it within yourself.

No one says problems doesn't exsist. Pointing out a victim mentality is not gaslighting. 

Saying that pointing out when someone has a victim mentality is gaslighting is the real gaslighting.

Bravo! ??

You nailed it ??

[SamC]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

You know what nobody has the right to judge if someone is playing victim or not. Your logic doesn't work. Go tell real victims of abuse that they have victim mentality. No they don't. They are victims. And they need healing and support and not judgement, blame and shame. Because you don't walk in their shoes, you easily get the right to judge them. No. First feel how they feel and you will not say have victim mentality. Without truly understanding their pain, your claims are bogus. 

 

@Preety_India

And here is why pointing out the unhealthy manifestations of sprial dynamics stage green on this forum is necessary.

You gaslight assumptions of me being wrong and you being right and demonize me and say that I blame, shame and judge victims and can't walk in there shoes. Yet, I never said that - you said that. You don't know my level of empathizing and understanding with victims. As far as you know,  I might even be one of those people who have felt like a vicitm or even been abused or molested as a child. You don't know me. You easily get the right to judge me Do you notice the irony?

IT IS OKEY TO FEEL LIKE A VITICM but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't shred a light on the fact that the vicitm mentality is not useful for anyone. Pointing that out is not gaslighting, only telling the truth that a vicitm mentality is not something to strive for. Of corse we should meet people who feel like vicitms with love and compassion and understanding and sometimes just listen to them and sometimes help them move up to the victim mentality and away from the " it was my fault mentality".  But we shouldn't encourage people to stay there forever. 

Lastly, there doesn't exsist a destination between being a victim and playing a vicitm. Everyone who feels like a vicitm is a vicitm. It doesn't matter what he or she have been through. Hence it doesn't matter what someone has been thourgh - the " I am a vicitm mentality " is not a benifical belief to hold forever. It is not something to strive for, for most.

Tip: Watch Leo's serie on the vicitm mentality! It's super insightful, and has helped me a lot.

 love

 

 

[Preety_India]

@SamC there's a clear difference between being a victim and playing a victim. You made a huge error. 

 

[SamC]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@SamC there's a clear difference between being a victim and playing a victim. You made a huge error. 

 

@Preety_India You talk about manipulation by a grandiose narccisst who use that tactic as a way to manipulate. I talk about someone who legit feels like a vicitm, hence my point.

If you FEEL like you're a vicitm. You ARE a vicitm. I mean who gets to decide who is a vicitm or not?

39 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You know what nobody has the right to judge if someone is playing victim or not.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by SamC

[Preety_India]

@SamC you're confusing two things. Being victimized someone, for example a violence or rape victim versus someone who is playing a victim to get sympathy and not actually suffered anything. 

A victim player causes more harm to actual victims. 

But you can't tell an actual victim that they are victim playing when they aren't. 

You can only say if someone is simply playing victim if you have sufficient evidence to prove that they are playing victim. 

Otherwise it would be considered a false accusation from you.. 

Do you now see the difference? 

Okay this is enough discussion for me, I'm out. 

Peace 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Preety_India

[SamC]

Just now, Preety_India said:

@SamC you're confusing two things. Being victimized someone, for example a violence or rape victim versus someone who is playing a victim to get sympathy and not actually suffered anything. 

A victim player causes more harm to actual victims. 

But you can't tell an actual victim that they are victim playing when they aren't. 

You can only say if someone is simply playing victim if you have sufficient evidence to prove that they are playing victim. 

Otherwise it would be considered a false accusation from you.. 

Do you now see the difference? 

 

Exactly. Like a narcissist who hurts people who feels like a vicitm.

But again

45 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You know what nobody has the right to judge if someone is playing victim or not. 

Cause no one can judge other people's trauma. You might look at my trauma and say, puhh that is nothing, you're playing vicitm yet I feel like a vicitm. Who get's to decide that? I mean, it was big to me and I feel like vicitm. Who is right than? The person who is sitting on the feelings of vicitm hood or the person who is saying those feelings aren't valid.

I mean, I am only guessing but I can imagine your abusive narcissistic X boyfriend used " Your feelings are invalid and wrong manipulation a lot on you ( gaslighting).

It doesn't matter what trauma the other person has been thourgh. People can still develop a vicitm mentality, eventhough they are not raped or whatever. Trauma and vicitm mentality take many forms.

All emotion and thoughts are valid and no one gets to decide that they are too small, invalid or over exagurted. Victims are vicitms if they feel like they are vicitms.

 

 

[Preety_India]

@SamC you're completely confusing two things and I'm running out of patience to explain you. So goodbye 

 

[Surfingthewave]

1 hour ago, SamC said:

I have been gaslighted myself by a girl who says that everything is my fault and that I should change, so the core message of the post is amazing and super important. 

I'd rather talk about what what I made clear at the start of this thread.  Would you care to diverge some more information about this experience. 

Just to be clear no one has the right to say who is or isn't a victim @SamC and @Gesundheit so please refrain from doing so. 

[Gesundheit]

19 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

Just to be clear no one has the right to say who is or isn't a victim @SamC and @Gesundheit so please refrain from doing so. 

Judging help negatively when it could potentially change a person's life is problematic too. You're damned if you do it and you're damned if you don't.

You may be feeling hurt, but you shouldn't demonize helping others, because otherwise you wouldn't even be here telling me what's right and what's wrong, which in and of itself, is ultimately a form of helping others. If you're helping me, then who are you to offer me help? And if you're not, then your post is pointless, especially when written on a personal development forum.

Demonizing help is like demonizing doctors and hospitals.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Gesundheit

[JohnD]

There's two sides to victim mentality. The side that says "Poor me" and the side that says "Fuck you". Both are appropriate responses to trauma, especially in younger people. We're learners, so when we have an experience, we can integrate it for insight. 

Trauma is an experience that is too overwhelming to process. It's not your fault something so drastic happened, but it happened. Someone who is run by their trauma will see a distorted world where anything related to the abuser is projected to be the abuser. When we recognize our trauma from our own perspective, we start to uncover and understand it. It reveals why we behave in certain ways, and helps us see through the haze.

These are two different ways of being. Both are victims, but one is recovering, and one continues to inflict trauma their trauma on others.

This thread was supposed to be about gaslighting...

[SamC]

19 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

I'd rather talk about what what I made clear at the start of this thread.  Would you care to diverge some more information about this experience. 

Just to be clear no one has the right to say who is or isn't a victim @SamC and @Gesundheit so please refrain from doing so. 

I never said that you didn't feel like a victim or not, all I said that there was no gaslighting.

Of corse you felt like a victim otherwise you wouldn't have created the post. It's okey to be a vicitm and I'm not saying that you're not a vicitm, cause obviously you are. I mean by your standards you've been gaslighted by people in the thread aka someone has done something wrong to you and yoy felt that needs to stop( vicitm mentality, you feel misunderstood).

You have to right to your emotions and feelings of vicitmhood but I have the right to disagree that it was gaslighting that caused those feelings.

[Surfingthewave]

@JohnD Thank you

Just to be clear, further explanations of gaslighting:

Undermining another person's reality by denying facts, the environment around them or their feelings (as what happened to me in the last thread). My feelings were undermined. 

I think it's important to discuss how to spot it, any experiences you may have of it and to shut it down by pointing it out. 

For example: A wife might tell her husband he is shirking child care responsibilities, he responds by refusing to acknowledge it's even happening he's gaslighting her. 

This thread really isn't about me and my experiences it's about what people perceive gaslighting is.  

Edited February 2, 2021 by Surfingthewave

[Surfingthewave]

2 minutes ago, SamC said:

You have to right to your emotions and feelings of vicitmhood but I have the right to disagree that it was gaslighting that caused those feelings.

Can you see what you are doing? 

That's why we need the thread. 

[Etherial Cat]

As I see it, gaslighting occurs when someone doesn't want to acknowledge someone's truth or free will, because something is at stake for him/her.

It's a power move which includes re-writing and controlling the narrative in order to strip the person being gaslit from its sense of reality and get it to conform to an expected behavior.

What is really at stake is a battle for power and sens making. Through the gaslighting, the person is trying to shape and define reality.

The main issue will be to recognize the pattern, because the gaslighter will deny its gaslighting through self-deception or ill intent.

[commie]

52 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

Just to be clear no one has the right to say who is or isn't a victim @SamC and @Gesundheit so please refrain from doing so. 

If no one said who is or isn't a victim, perps would never be stopped.

I took one look at the locked thread (if that's the one you're talking about) and found a ban-grade gaslighting post.

25 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

For example: A wife might tell her husband he is shirking child care responsibilities, he responds by refusing to acknowledge it's even happening he's gaslighting her.

Not necessarily. Denying the facts would be, but disagreeing about what these responsibilities are (how a child should be raised) wouldn't.

Edited February 2, 2021 by commie

[SamC]

Just now, Surfingthewave said:

Can you see what you are doing? 

That's why we need the thread. 

 

@Surfingthewave Lol.

Can you see what you're doing? 

You're telling me that my opinion and perspective is not valid. That's the gaslighting.

I have the right to have a different opinion than you just like you have the right to not agree with me.

You're undermining my opinion as gaslighting when I have the right to have my opinion. Of corse you're allowed to feel like you're gaslighted but I am equally allowed to state that I strongly disagree with the fact that you actually was gaslighted in that situation.  You can feel gaslighted without being gaslighted.

Your feelings are valid, your anger is valid, your frustration with sexist dumbfucks in this world is valid.

But so are my opinion. Which is what I said. You have to right to feel gaslighted but I have the right to disagree that it was gaslighting. You felt like you're misunderstood and not met with understanding but that doesn't mean I gaslighted you. That's only your interpretation of me disagreeing with you.

And that's what I meant with what I wrote.

7 minutes ago, SamC said:

 

You have to right to your emotions and feelings of vicitmhood ( or feeling of being gaslighed) but I have the right to disagree that it was gaslighting that caused those feelings.

Or in other words. BOTH have the right to their opinion. 

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I am a gaslighter.

https://youtu.be/-ka_g2tdosg 

Tip, wanna learn more about gaslighting?

Watch this vid.