Let’s stop demonizing Green

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv What if someone is raised in a Yellow household or a similar situation?

What if someone is raised in a household of marathon runners or piano players? It is a great environment to learn, yet it still requires years of practice, immersion, integration and work to gain experience, develop skills and embody. 

Households or environments of well-integrated yellow are extremely rare. In such a rare case, the child would have an advantage if the parents are able to integrate and teach all stages through mind, body and spirit. 

This especially holds true for Green. One can get a pretty good understanding of Orange via intellectualizing. Yet Green is not intellectualizing. It is not about intellectualizing things like empathy, love, connection, creativity. It is actually being those things and gaining understanding that is not intellectual. Green is awakenings of the heart and spirit, not awakenings of the intellectual mind.  

10 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

Besides, one cannot just say "I am Green". It takes years to master it.

Of course. One could say "I resonate with Green". Yet to deeply understand and embody takes years of work. Yet some people have natural abilities for Green. For example, some people are natural empaths. 

[captainamerica]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

What if someone is raised in a household of marathon runners or piano players? It is a great environment to learn, yet it still requires years of practice, immersion, integration and work to gain experience, develop skills and embody. 

This especially holds true for Green. One can get a pretty good understanding of Orange via intellectualizing. Yet Green is not intellectualizing. It is not about intellectualizing things like empathy, love, connection, creativity. It is actually being those things and gaining understanding that is not intellectual. Green is awakenings of the heart and spirit, not awakenings of the intellectual mind.  

@Forestluv People who are raised in an environment of love, connection, and creativity display that for sure. Look at the kids of couples with awesome marriages vs the couples that have an okay marriage let alone a broken one to find the difference.

Piano playing is different. We are talking about behavior not skill. 

Compassion can be learned as a skill. But it becomes behavior.

Again, I can see fantasy land of Green. 

In spiritual circles, teenagers and 20 somethings start showing a desire for nirvana with their developed discrimination due the "positive" influence.

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[Forestluv]

 

12 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv People who are raised in an environment of love, connection, and creativity display that for sure.

Yet that display didn't come from intellectualization. As well, understanding goes deeper than mere display. That is still at a surface level.

12 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv

Piano playing is different. We are talking about behavior not skill. 

Playing the piano is also a behavior! Deeper understanding and embodiment is an integrated whole that includes skill, behavior, experience, intuition, knowledge etc. 

12 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv

Again, I can see fantasy land of Green. 

In spiritual circles, teenage kids start showing a desire for nirvana their developed discrimination. 

That is a limited perspective. I see people speaking Chinese as a certain way. Yet I have a surface level of understanding. To gain a deeper understanding, I would need to travel to China, immerse myself in Chinese culture and learn to speak Chinese. Yet this takes work and effort. Most people are too lazy to do the work and don't go to deeper levels of understanding and embodiment. 

If you dedicated 10 years of your life fully immersing yourself into Green, with openness, you would have a much deeper understanding and embodiment than you do now. Why focus on hypothetical situations of how it might be for others? That will not get you any closer to deeper understanding yourself. It's like conceptualizing whether it's better to train for a marathon at high altitude. Sitting around thinking about it is not going to move me toward actually running a marathon. I need to actually go running and train. 

[captainamerica]

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet that display didn't come from intellectualization. As well, understanding goes deeper than mere display. That is still at a surface level.

26 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

You think it is a display. Many people I know due to the creative behavior of their parents have made great successes in several fields starting from zero. The result and the understanding it produced is real.

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Playing the piano is also a behavior! Deeper understanding and embodiment is an integrated whole that includes skill, behavior, experience, intuition, knowledge etc. 

26 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

In this context it is not. This is like playing a word game. In presence of Lord Buddha, many became compassionate. In presence of Michael Phelps no one became a swimmer automatically.

18 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

That is a limited perspective. I see people speaking Chinese as a certain way. Yet I have a surface level of understanding. To gain a deeper understanding, I would need to travel to China, immerse myself in Chinese culture and learn to speak Chinese. Yet this takes work and effort. Most people are too lazy to do the work and don't go to deeper levels of understanding and embodiment. 

I have been in close contact with similar spiritual circles with Gurus like Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Parmahansa Yogananda etc., it is not a limited perspective. That's what actually happens. Have you been in a spiritual circle that performs consistently in the real world and doesn't talk shit? There these things happen naturally.

Seriously, the level of delusion that green has surprises me.

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[captainamerica]

13 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If you dedicated 10 years of your life fully immersing yourself into Green, with openness, you would have a much deeper understanding and embodiment than you do now. Why focus on hypothetical situations of how it might be for others? That will not get you any closer to deeper understanding yourself. It's like conceptualizing whether it's better to train for a marathon at high altitude. Sitting around thinking about it is not going to move me toward actually running a marathon. I need to actually go running and train. 

@Forestluv That is not the only way. Your pov is limited, IMHO.

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

You think it is a display.

You introduced the framework of "display", not me.

As I've said, children raised in a high conscious environment are much more likely to develop high consciousness. Childhood environment has an extremely strong influence on development, yet it is not the only influence.

19 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

In presence of Lord Buddha, many became compassionate.

And that is gaining understanding through direct experience. That person did not sit around and intellectualize. They were willing to be open, let go of resistance, travel to a new environment and immerse themself.

In my own experience, I wanted to learn more about purple and green - so I decided to immerse myself in that environment. I spent weeks living with a tribe in the mountains of Peru. I was immersed in their culture - spending time with shamans and ceremonies. Yet this took some work and effort. 

19 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

Have you been in a spiritual circle that performs consistently in the real world and doesn't talk shit? .

Yes. Yet I would be mindful of judgement and purity standards. "Performs consistently" and "talking shit" are relative constructs. 

19 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

Seriously, the level of delusion that green has surprises me.

It is also delusional for someone to speak a few words of Chinese and think they are fluent in Chinese. 

13 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv That is not the only way. Your pov is limited, IMHO.

Growth and development is unlimited. If you dedicated 10 years of your life to a thing, you will develop a deeper, broader understanding.

[captainamerica]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

You introduced the framework of "display", not me.

 

I think it is clear that by display I meant demonstrate. Not "surface level" or "acting".

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

And that is gaining understanding through direct experience. That person did not sit around and intellectualize. They were willing to be open, let go of resistance, travel to a new environment and immerse themself.

 

Again, many cases have been reported of it happening spontaneously without people planning or being particularly ambitious or productive. Even if we assume those were wrong we have noticed similar with saints around us in our times. Happened with Mahatma Gandi as well. 

3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yes.

15 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

I can agree with that. Maybe they were western circles. In eastern circles, there have been people and teenagers who develop a high level of discrimination in a practical sense.

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It is also delusional for someone to speak a few words of Chinese and think they can speak Chinese. 

It is delusional to assume that there is only one way to learn to speak Chinese.

[captainamerica]

I am not saying Green is wrong. But the way a lot of people implement green reminds me of Shit and Weed. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

I think it is clear that by display I meant demonstrate. Not "surface level" or "acting".

Yes, that is how I interpreted your meaning of "display". There are still deeper layers. Someone can demonstrate speaking English, yet understanding English goes much deeper than a demonstration of speaking.

11 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

Again, many cases have been reported of it happening spontaneously without people planning or being particularly ambitious or productive. Even if we assume those were wrong we have noticed similar with saints around us in our times. Happened with Mahatma Gandi as well. 

An "it" happening is an "it". That is wonderful and part of growth and development. Yet there are more "its" to realize. Any "it" is distinct form "not that it".

11 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

It is delusional to assume that there is only one way to learn to speak Chinese.

I never said that. In the context of Green, there are many ways to learn to speak Green. There are many dialects of Chinese and Green. Yet to learn a language, someone has to actually go learn a language. I'm not going to learn Chinese by writing about Chinese in English on an internet forum. 

I'm not going to realize and embody empathic and intuitive essence by intellectualizing it. 

[captainamerica]

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yes, that is how I interpreted your meaning of "display". There are still deeper layers. Someone can demonstrate speaking English, yet understanding English goes much deeper than a demonstration of speaking.

13 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

It is not productive to discuss this.

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

An "it" happening is an "it". That is wonderful and part of growth and development. Yet there is more "its" to realize. Any "it" is distinct form "not that it".

13 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

That does not mean "it" is incomplete, in a practical sense.

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I never said that. In the context of Green, there are many ways to learn to speak Green. There are many dialects of Chinese and Green. Yet to learn a language, someone has to actually go learn a language. I'm not going to learn Chinese by writing about Chinese in English on an internet forum. 

Why would you assume that people are coming from the latter place?  Behavior and a deeper level of understanding do come realistically from many other factors, including sudden awakenings in life, environment etc.

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, captainamerica said:

That does not mean "it" is incomplete, in a practical sense.

It depends on the level of resolution we use. If I have an insight of intuition through direct experience, that insight is complete as itself. Yet is is also a component of larger whole. 

[captainamerica]

 

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It depends on the level of resolution we use. If I have an insight of intuition through direct experience, that insight is complete as itself. Yet is is also a component of larger whole. 

@Forestluv Surely, the point at which everyone feels the need to avoid the shitty part of a stage and move to higher stages will not be the same for everyone. The degree of physical manifestation on the positive degrees will also vary. No need to have manifest the whole of it in order for it to be complete in a practical sense. In fact that assumption will make the understanding incomplete. Which is why it is important to learn limitations of Green.

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@Vrubel you have to take into account that a lot of self development is linked to stage orange. You forget that 

No, I didn't.

Here is a radical idea: what if stage orange people actually can have wise ideas and attitudes worth considering.
 

[captainamerica]

In Yellow, people gen. have no idea how much nuanced the idea of equality gets. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by captainamerica

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

 

@Forestluv No need to have manifest the whole of it in order for it to be complete in a practical sense. In fact that assumption will make the understanding incomplete. Which is why it is important to learn limitations of Green.

There are degrees. A common aspect of human behavior is taking shortcuts. For example, to become a science teacher, one does not need to know 100% of science. Yet there is a threshold of expertise one needs to be a science teacher. The tendency is that people don't want to spend the time and effort of the developmental path. They are too lazy and would rather fancy themself as understanding science after reading a few science articles. They don't want to actually years of effort reading and learning science. They don't want to spend years in a lab conducting research. It's much easier to be an armchair scientist and criticize science from a surface level. I've dedicated 25 years of my life studying science and it's easy to spot someone criticizing scientists and scientific research without having an understanding of the actual science they are criticizing or what it's like to be a scientific researcher. You've got to go into the lab and actually conduct science. . . I'm not saying criticism from non-scientists has no merit. Philosophical and mystical criticisms can have value. Yet they are limited. As well, there are many inaccurate criticisms of science that are made by people ignorant of what science is.

Similarly, understanding Green takes a certain threshold. Being an armchair Green analyzer is a surface level. One actually needs to put down their intellectual analysis and judgement. They need to immerse themselves in Green empathy, love, connection, emotions, intuition etc. An intellectual critique of Green is not Green itself. 

Most people, especially men, are so caught up in their intellectual mind that they have very little understanding of the beingness and embodiment of empathy, love, emotions, intuition. 

[captainamerica]

Just now, Forestluv said:

There are degrees. A common aspect of human behavior is taking shortcuts. To become a science professor, one does not need to know 100% of science. Yet there is a threshold of expertise one needs to be a science teacher. The tendency is that people don't want to spend the time and effort of the developmental path. They are too lazy and would rather fancy themself as understanding science after reading a few science articles. They don't want to actually years of effort reading and learning science. They don't want to spend years in a lab conducting research. It's much easier to be an armchair scientist and criticize science from a surface level. I've dedicated 25 years of my life studying science and it's easy to spot someone criticizing scientists and scientific research without having an understanding of the actual science they are criticizing or what it's like to be a scientific researcher. You've got to go into the lab and actually conduct science. . . I'm not saying criticism from non-scientists has no merit. Philosophical and mystical criticisms can have value. Yet they are limited. 

@Forestluv How do you know people like me have not passed through that threshold? Your idea of ways to get to that threshold level at Green seems limited. People can get there by serious Kensho experiences in a relatively short time frame. While embodying the positive aspects of it in a way that benefits mankind not some wild fantasy due to a hysterical implementation of Green.

[captainamerica]

5 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Similarly, understanding Green takes a certain threshold. Being an armchair Green analyzer is a surface level. One actually needs to put down their intellectual analysis and judgement. They need to immerse themselves in Green empathy, love, connection, intuition etc. An intellectual critique of Green is not Green itself. 

You have assumed that everyone giving advice to Green is doing that.

Green seems in a funny position where they demonize Red/Blue/Orange. And will make all the excuses to not learn from Yellow pov.

I'll get back to this tomorrow. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, captainamerica said:

@Forestluv How do you know people like me have not passed through that threshold? Your idea of ways to get to that threshold level at Green seems limited. People can get there by serious Kensho experiences in a relatively short time frame. While embodying the positive aspects of it in a way that benefits mankind not some wild fantasy due to a hysterical implementation of Green.

To me, you seem to be conceptualizing Green - which has value, yet that aint Green itself. Green is not intellectualizing and creating concepts of emotions, intuition, energetics, empathy, vulnerability, surrender and love. It is the actuality / beingness of those emotions, intuition, energetics and love. These are very different orientations. Men in particular are extremely left-brain oriented and revert to intellect. In general, women can embody green much easier. 

[captainamerica]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Similarly, understanding Green takes a certain threshold. Being an armchair Green analyzer is a surface level. One actually needs to put down their intellectual analysis and judgement. They need to immerse themselves in Green empathy, love, connection, emotions, intuition etc. An intellectual critique of Green is not Green itself. 

Most people, especially men, are so caught up in their intellectual mind that they have very little understanding of the beingness and embodiment of empathy, love, emotions, intuition. 

This perspective is limited. The circle is not complete without mixing in intuition and intellect. The solid pragmatism of intellect is a feature in such awakenings. Even in the case of samadhi and enlightenment. 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, captainamerica said:

You have assumed that everyone giving advice to Green is doing that.

Green seems in a funny position where they demonize Red/Blue/Orange. And will make all the excuses to not learn from Yellow pov.

There is a difference between criticizing green from above and criticizing green from below. A well-integrated yellow speaks Green's language, because they have embodied green. They are multi-lingual in a sense. A well-integrated yellow, understands Green beyond intellectual constructs. A well-integrated Yellow knows the beingness of empathy, heart awakenings, love, intuition, vulnerability, connection. A well-integrated Yellow will be oriented toward pulling Green up. Not simply criticizing Green through intellectual judgement and distaste. 

Imagine a loving parent giving advice to their child. They don't simply criticize the child. That creates toxic conditioning. The parent offers advice in a loving, supportive way that encourages them to grow. Yet such a parent isn't simply intellectual. They can relate to the feelings and experience of their child. They are empathetic, love and connect with their child.